Listen now!

In this episode:

• What can you do when your boss isn’t clear?
• How do you lead others in that situation?
• I also review an article from Harvard Business Review about the top 10 complaints from team members about their leaders when it comes to communication.
• Finally I share about how to work with a difficult team member – someone who seems to be undermining your projects.

Resources:

4 Levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader – This easy-to-read graphic clearly illustrates the 4 Levels of Thinking, individually breaking down each level.

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The Top Complaints from Employees about their Leaders – Harvard Business Review article from the Thought Leader segment.

Transcript:

Recording: [00:00:00] Becoming a Geek Leader Season 2, Episode 3.

Sponsored by Geek to Great

Tom: [00:00:07] Have you ever had one of those really annoying customers who always seems to be looking to start an argument?

[00:00:13] Have you ever had a team member who just couldn’t let go, and delegate work, but was always complaining about being buried?

[00:00:21] I’ve been there, and I know how frustrating that could feel. I also know these things don’t generally get better on their own. People need help learning exactly how to communicate, delegate, manage conflict with others, and plan more effectively. Now you know it would be great if you had a simple plan to address those needs, but you’re crazy busy too, right?

[00:00:45] That’s why I created the Geek to Great 101 program.

[00:00:50] It’s a simple system, designed for you to take a portion of your already scheduled team meetings to play a video for your team, ask a few questions from the leaders guide, and your team members will be able to fill in their own personalized action plan. It’s a great way to put a simple, professional development program in place. Your team members will be able to share their plan with you, and you could help them actually do it.

[00:00:15] Train your whole team for less than $500. Find out more information, and get immediate access to your first free lesson at brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks. That’s brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks.

[00:01:33] Welcome to the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. My name is Tom Cooper. As a geek, I’m on a mission to figure out better ways to lead others at work, and at home.

[00:01:43] Through the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast, I’m sharing what I’m learning, so I can help make you more effective at leading people too.

[00:01:50] Ready?

Introduction

[00:01:55] Have you ever had mud splash up on the windshield of your car while you’re driving? If so, you know that while the wipers are working to remove that mud, your windshield can get pretty blurry. Today, I’m going to talk about how to live clearly in a blurry world. First, we’re going to talk about the top complaints from employees about leaders who don’t communicate.

[00:02:20] Then we’re going to talk about what do you do when you’re boss is not clear in what he’s asking you to do. And finally today we’re going to talk about how do you get clarity about high level estimates when project requirements are really fuzzy.

[00:02:37] So let’s jump right into the thought leaders segment.

Thought leader segment.

Tom: [00:02:59] In a recent Harvard business review article called The Top Complaints From Employees About Their Leaders, I came across some stats that blew me away. First, they said that 91% of employees, 91% say communication issues can drag the executives down. Since this podcast is all about helping you become a better leader, I’m going to share the results of the survey and talk about how you can respond.

[00:03:26] This article is targeted at executive communication. Communication when you’re the boss is something you need to think about when you’re at level three of the four levels of thinking as a geek leader. But even if you’re not a boss yet, listen to see how these things affect you. You can find a download of the four levels of thinking as a geek leader on the webpage for this episode.

Level three. Team Leader.

[00:03:51] Level three. As the boss of a team, your job is to recruit and develop individuals, and team members who follow your lead.

Tom: [00:04:03] Let’s say that you’re not the boss yet, you can still think about how to apply these ideas so that you can avoid some of the challenges that these leaders are facing. So here they are from the least annoying complaint in the survey. Number nine, not asking about employees lives outside of work. 23% of employees complain their leaders only think about and talk about work. They don’t recognize that people have lives and interests other than work. Now even though this is the least annoying, know that this affects almost 25% of the people you work with.

[00:04:41] So moving on from number nine to number eight. Refusing to talk to people on the phone, or in person. Now this leader is only using e-mail for all communication, as if that works. Oh my goodness.

[00:04:45] number seven, not knowing team members names. Really, you don’t know the names of the people on your team? Dale Carnegie said ” The sweetest sound of any language is the sound of a man’s own name.” And it’s a good idea for you to know the names of your team members.

[00:05:13] Number six. Not offering constructive criticism. Now I want to point out that some people don’t like to tell others when things are not going well, but I’ll tell you that people really do want to hear negative feedback, and they don’t want to hear you criticize them personally or attack their character, but they do want to know that what they’re doing doesn’t need the standard. So the thing is when you refuse to give direct and clear feedback about negative performance, you’re not actually helping them, and I see this all the time. You’re really cheating them out of getting the information they need, and on top of that you’re selfishly avoiding a difficult conversation. Ouch, don’t do that.

[00:05:55] Number five. Taking credit for other people’s ideas. Man you’ve got to be kidding me. Real leaders share the credit, and don’t share the blame. Number four, refusing to talk to subordinates. Now I hear this all the time, I was just talking to a CFO yesterday where he was complaining that his boss wouldn’t talk to him. Make the time to talk to people. It pays.

[00:06:20] Number three, this is related to number four. Not making time to meet with your employees. Look if you’re the boss, at a minimum you should schedule a 30 minute one on one meeting at least every other week with your team members. How are you going to connect with them personally, how are you going to help them feel heard if you don’t do that.

[00:06:38] Number two. Not giving clear directions. You should, when you’re giving clear directions you should be able to ask them to repeat back in their own words what they heard. It’s surprising how different what you said is from what they heard, and most people are far less clear than they’d think. And we’ll talk about that some more in just a minute.

[00:06:59] And the number one issue which was raised by 63% of respondents was not recognizing employee achievements. Now I’m going to emphasize that even if you’re not the boss, you can start practicing every item on this list. And no matter where you are on the four levels, whether you’re an individual performer, or a team member, or a team leader, or a team builder, tackling these communication challenges is a big deal. And it’ll help significantly.

[00:07:30] People on your teams, whether you’re the boss or not, they want to feel connected, they want to feel heard, and they want clear messages from you. Make communicating your priority, and you’ll be surprised by how much of a difference it makes. Now I’ll put a link to the article on the show notes, the original article from Harvard Business Review on the webpage for this episode. And by the way, Harvard Business Review has great articles, and you might enjoy their podcast too. They call their podcast the Harvard idea cast, The Harvard Business Review idea cast. Check it out.

[00:08:00] and that’s today’s thought leader segment.

Mentoring segment.

Tom: [00:08:21] For today’s mentoring segment, I want to talk about what can you do when you’re on the other side. When you’re the one trying to get a message from a boss who’s completely unclear. Years ago I worked in a company where one of the leaders was frequently very frustrated with his team members. One time he was exasperated, he said ” I was crystal clear with them, why didn’t he get it? ” I’d been on the receiving end of a number of those messages, let me assure you that crystal and clarity did not enter into the conversation.

[00:08:55] George Bernard Shaw said ” The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. ” And in this situation he definitely had the illusion that communication had taken place. I spoke yesterday with the CFO of a company, and he remarked that his boss was guilty of many of the top complaints employees have about their leaders, and communication, and he told me he couldn’t even get a response from his boss who was the owner of the company. And he struggled to get good insight from his boss when he did get feedback. So I know this is a problem. I even went back, and looked over my notes from coaching sessions with clients, and unclear IA a word that appears dozens and dozens of times in my notes. It’s one of the top problems my clients face.

[00:09:41] Today, I’ve got two ideas to share with you. Both of them are things I think you should start doing at level one of the four levels of thinking as a geek leader.

Level one. Individual.

At level one you may even be a superstar technical resource. Level one focuses you on improving your technical skills.

Tom: [00:10:05] So what can you do when your boss is unclear? And we know it’s impossible to change the other guy, we know that because it’s so difficult for us to change ourselves that we can know that we want to lose weight, and so we need to eat better, and we need to eat less, and we need to exercise more. We can know that, But it’s not easy to do that.

[00:10:29] So if we have so much difficulty on changing ourselves, it’s really almost impossible for us to change the other guy. So you can’t make your boss become a good communicator, but there are two easy things you can do. First, when you’re uncertain about what your boss wants, ask him or her to clarify. Ask them to give you a better picture. Now I’m a big picture guy, and I think in concepts, not in details, I tend to communicate a really high level, and I really love it when people can fill in the gaps.

[00:11:04] But I remember that I used to work with a team of detail guys, people who wanted to know every part that I wanted, and how I wanted it done too. Specifically I remember working with Julio, Julio was a talented developer who was very detail focused, and he was very quality focused. He wanted to get it right. You might imagine that Julio and I were not always on the same page. When I was delegating work to him, or assigning a new project to him, Julio insisted in going over all the details with me. I’ve got to confess when I was pretty frustrated about doing that, because in my head I was thinking ” It can’ t be that hard. Why can’t you just run with the ball. ” But one thing I learned from Julio’s questions is that I was not as nearly as clear as I thought I was.

[00:11:54] Another thing that Julio taught me that there were sometimes that I wasn’t even sure yet exactly what I wanted, and that my idea needed more work before it was ready to be handed off for somebody to actually do some work about it. And another thing that Julio taught me that the time invested with him on the front end of the process was very well spent, because once he had a clear understanding of exactly what I wanted, he was so much more effective in delivering exactly what I wanted. So if you’re not clear about what’s needed, ask, ask for clarification. Make sure you understand exactly what the boss needs, by when and with what quality level.

[00:12:39] Charles Blair said “Have an understanding, so there won’t be a misunderstanding.” If you aren’t sure what your boss wants, ask. Let me give an example. Let’s say your boss comes to you and says ” Are you done on the Rappel hammer project, I need you to finish that up. ” Now not knowing exactly what your boss wants you might say ” Boss, I’m not sure exactly I’m clear on what you mean by done. So you mean done with adding new features? Or done ready to launch the customers? Or somewhere in between? ” Your boss would much rather be frustrated by your questions than be frustrated by your lack on delivery, because you worked on something other than what he wanted, or what he intended.

[00:13:23] So that’s the first one. Now let’s talk about the second idea, repeat back. When you’re getting an assignment from your boss, take a moment to repeat back the assignment in your own words. For example, if your boss says ” I want you to meet with the project team to find out what they want so it could be finished with the requirements phase. ” You might say ” So boss you want me to go meet with Pash [SP], and Sheila to get their list of requirements. ” Yes. Okay, so now you’ve got some understanding about what he wants, but you don’t have specificity about when and how much. So I’d go on to say after you want me to meet with Pash and Sheila to get their list of requirements, you might say “Okay, I think I can meet with them by the end of next week. Now from talking to them, I’m not sure all of the requirements are defined yet, but I can bring you a draft list by the end of next week. Will that work? ”

[00:14:15] Your boss gave you a very general assignment, and you repeated back what the boss wanted, and then you asked for clarification by kind of putting in some specific hints, and details. And the thing is your boss might not know that Pash and Sheila haven’t really thought through exactly what they want yet, but here you are giving him that additional information in your repeating back, and you’ve defined a measurement, I’m going to give you a list by the end of next week, and now you’ve identified some really specific things that need to be done. You can also follow up with an email, summarizing the assignment as you understood it. ” Hey boss, after our conversation I’m just sending this email to confirm that I’ll get back to you by the end of next week with the list of requirements I get from my meetings with Pash, and Sheila. ” See that way you’re on the same page, and you’re not going to be having a fight, or an argument later.

[00:15:18] Another example, your boss might say “I need you to take care of that problem Joe called me about. You know, the one where labels are all printing wrong. “So you repeat back, you say ” You want me to meet with Joe to find out what changes are needed for the labels.” And in this case the boss might give you come more information ” Yeah, and then I want you do to whatever else is needed to solve it. So at this point you can respond ” Okay, so I’m going to meet with Joe, find out what changes are needed, and then move forward with making those changes.” At this point your boss will probably look at you, and say something like “are you still here? Yes, that’s what I want. Is it done yet? “Okay, I work for that guy, I might have even been that guy. So repeating back is a great way to make sure that you, and your boss are on the same page, and you have the opportunity to offer some specifics about how much, and by when you’re going to be doing that delivery of the things that he’s asked for.

[00:16:15] So the two things that we talked about today are ask for clarification, and repeat back what your boss has asked for. And that’s today’s mentoring segment.

Coach’s mail box.

Tom: [00:16:58] In the coach’s mailbox segment, today I’ve got an e-mail from Liz. She writes ” Tom, I’ve been asked to come up with a plan for a new project. But it’s in an area where we don’t have a whole lot of experience, and the requirements are not clear. I’ve asked some technical team members for estimates, but it has been really hard. They want me to give them a ton of details about the technical requirements, those just don’t exist. But my boss is really all over me to give him an estimate of what it’s going to take to do this project. How in the world can I get good estimates when the requirements are not well defined? Is it impossible? I mean that’s what the tech folks are telling me. ” Well Liz, this is a challenge. There’s no question about that, and I’ll tell you we could spend hours literally digging into this topic. But for today, let me share how T-shirt can lead to better estimates.

[00:17:54] Now in order to tackle this, you need to be thinking of level two of the four levels of thinking as a geek leader.

Level two. Team member.

[00:18:04] Level two is where you work well with others. And together, you all succeed.

Tom: [00:18:10] I’ve spend a lot of years working as a technical team member, and somebody who was actually hands on the keyboard doing technical work, and I can tell you when I was a technical team member, I loved to have small scope, and clear requirements. And early in our careers that was the kind of assignments we always got that was very clear, very specific. I remember being in school, and I got really clear work assignments in school like that, here write this algorithm, it solves this particular thing.

[00:18:37] But now later in my career, later in your career. Now that we’re leading work efforts, things are less clear. In fact, I’ve got some bad news. The higher you go in your role, the less clear things become. One of the critical skills in becoming a geek leader is managing ambiguous requirements, and unclear goals. It’s your job to help make those goals, and requirements clear for others. It’s your job to find a fuzzy stuff, and help make it sharper.

[00:19:14] Now a lot has been written about estimation techniques like pert and parametric estimating, an analogous estimating. And depending on the data they you’ve got available, it maybe very helpful to use one of more of those tools. But the challenge that I found while I was trying to use any of those types of tools is that the tools assume that a, you know exactly what you want when you’re done, and b, you’ve data available that’s going to support you in that analysis, and my guess from that e-mail is that you have neither or not much of either. So let’s talk about what you can do to come up with a good big picture estimate.

[00:19:23] First results. What are the results? What do you need in order to have this be really successful? How will you know it’s working? What will you use to tell that a difference has been made? Then once you’ve got your results in mind, sit down with your technical experts, and tell them “Look there are still a ton of unanswered questions, and I’m not looking to carve anything in stone today. I’m not going to hold you accountable, in writing for the stuff that we say about how much this is. But I do want to have a conversation about how hard it’s going to be to get these results.”

[00:20:31] So as you work with your technical leads, you identify the major work area, and then whatever teams are needed to be involved in, in collaborating, or performing the work. And then tell them “Look, I’m just looking for a T-shirt size. Tell me is it large, medium, or small? I want to know how much effort? Not when, not duration, I just want to know how much effort this is going to be. How hard will it be to complete the work? Not when is it going to be done, or how is it going to be done, but how hard is it to kind of get those results. “Now I’ll tell you this can be a big challenge especially with folks who are high quants, who want to get everything measured down to perfection. And the less specifics you have, the less comfortable they’re going to be with answering your question. And it’s not because they don’t trust you, it’s because they don’t know for sure exactly what you want, and more than anything else that has been my experience that technical folks hate to be wrong.

[00:21:36] so how do you manage that? What you can do to help with their concern about being held accountable is something that’s really vague is to document for each major result, or milestone as you’re working with them either on paper, or on a whiteboard, write down here are the assumptions we are making. So for example, number one scope of this part of the project is limited to X. If that changes it might change, but the assumption you’re making for this estimate is that the scope is limited to X. Number two, we assume that Y, and Z will both be available when we start our part of the work, and number three, we only have to hand off A, and B when we’re done with our part of the work. And what this process does is it helps them be more confident, because they’re limiting their commitment to the constraints, or the assumptions that you’ve put out there. So if any of the assumptions change, their estimate is going to change, and you can tell them that if any of these assumptions turn out to not be true, we’ll come back, and get a better estimate. And then your goal is to help them identify small, medium, or large T-shirt size for each milestone. Once you’ve got small, medium, or large identified then you want to ask them based on what you know today, from this conversation only how comfortable are you with a T-shirt size we’ve talked about.

[00:23:05] So for example, we talked about meeting enterprise security standards, and tying that in with the enterprise single sign on toolkit that you told me that was a small T-shirt. How comfortable are you with that size based on what we know today? Would you say your comfort level is high, medium, or low? Now we’re talking broad strokes here, you might get pushed back like “I don’t know, how much are you planning to change the scope? So when do you want to get this done?” You want to reassure them, you’re going to limit the discussion to the things we know today, and we’re going to assume the scope is limited only to that.

[00:23:38] Now it may take going over a few major deliverable in this manner with them, but using this technique you should be able to get a sense of A, how much work it’s going to take? B, how risky the project is? And C, where the team is the least confident about executing? Now with this knowledge you can compare the project as it’s now defined, and look at the risks associate with it, and establish how much effort, and cost, and time it’s going to take to deliver.

[00:24:09] Now I’ll tell you it’s always, always worth it to consider a more lean, or an agile approach, but I know from experience most organizations still complete budget planning for projects in a more waterfall model, so it’s helpful to use this exercise to get a back of the envelope or T-shirt size estimate when the requirements are still mostly undefined. Liz I hope this helps you with your estimates. And that’s today’s coach’s mailbox segment.

Episode Hack.

Tom: [00:24:57] So in today’s episode, we talked about top complaints about leaders who struggle to communicate. We covered two ways to get clarity when your boss is unclear, and we talked about getting better estimates using T-shirts.

[00:25:12] For today’s episode hack, I want to encourage you to get more clear messages from your boss. If your boss is asking you to do something, and you’re not crystal clear about what he wants, ask. Ask for clarification. If your boss is asking for something that’s a little squishy, repeat back what he asked, and then make it more measurable. Tell him, when you’ll get it done, and exactly what you think he wants from you. If he buys in, you’re going to know you’re on the right track, and if not at least you’re clear about that too. You get that conversation going which is really what you need. And that’s today’s episode hack.

Closeout

[00:25:48] Hey, Can I ask you something? Did you hear something helpful on today’s episode? Why not share it with a friend? On my iPhone, it’s as simple as hitting the three little dots on the bottom right of the screen, selecting share episode, enter your friends’ e-mail, and hit send. Why do this? Two reasons. One your friends or coworker will thank you, you’ll be seen as a source of helpful, and valuable information, and they’ll appreciate you for it. And number two, I need you to help me get the word out about this podcast. I’m working hard to bring great ideas, and great content to you, but it’s a big help to me if more people hear those ideas. Go ahead, share it now. I’ll wait.

[00:26:36] Thanks.

[00:26:39] This is Tom Cooper, thanks for listening. Be sure to join me next time for another episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. Join me in my mission to discovering better ways to lead others at work and at home.

We’ve all been there – we’ve just made a mistake, and we need to know how to “fix” it.

In this episode I talk about what to do when you’ve blown it.  You’ll get some practical tips about how to clean up the mess that will leave you in a better place!

Listen now!

In this episode:

Resource Downloads:

4 Levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader – This easy-to-read graphic clearly illustrates the 4 Levels of Thinking, individually breaking down each level.

.

Transcript:

Announcer: [00:00:00] Season 2, episode 2.

Sponsored by Geek to Great

Tom: [00:00:04] I spoke with Dr. Peter Bamberger from Tel Aviv University’s Business School about engineers becoming leaders. And he said…

Dr. Bamberger: [00:00:11] [inaudible 00:00:11] take an engineer and you want to turn them into your leader in an organization, you can’t just assume that you promote them and they’ll sort of learn over time how to become a leader.

Tom: [00:00:22] Right.

Dr. Bamberger: [00:00:23] Some of them will. The vast majority won’t.

Tom: [00:00:26] Some of them will. But the vast majority won’t. So here you are. You’re a talented engineer. Maybe you’re running a team of technical folks. But the fact is, they won’t magically get better at things like communicating clearly, or delegating effectively, or dealing with conflict in a healthy way. They need to learn those skills.

[00:00:49] That’s why I created Geek to Great 101. It’s a simple way for you to help your team members with an easy plan to improve these skills and more. For less than $500, your team can start to make progress. Find more information and get immediate access to your first free lesson at brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks. That’s brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks.

[00:01:17] Welcome to the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. My name is Tom Cooper. As a geek, I’m on a mission to figure out better ways to lead others at work and at home. Through the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast I’m sharing what I’m learning so I can help make you more effective at leading people, too. Ready?

Introduction

Reporter: [00:01:39] The space agency says tonight, that a multi-million dollar spacecraft, sent to explore the atmosphere of the planet Mars, has been destroyed. It’s a setback to years of work already done. In the vastness of space, all it takes is one navigation error. In this case, NASA was off by 60 miles.

Tom: [00:02:00] Nobody likes to make mistakes, especially not those of us who have any sort of technical or engineering background. But as the Mars Climate Observer spacecraft debacle shows us, none of us is immune from making mistakes, even rocket scientists.

[00:02:17] The spacecraft crashed into the Mars’ surface instead of going into orbit properly. Why? A NASA review board found the problem was in the software controlling the orbiter’s thrusters. The software calculated the force the thrusters needed to exert in pounds of force. However, a separate piece of software took in the data and assumed it was in metric, newtons.

[00:02:42] In today’s episode, I’m going to talk about two aspects of making mistakes. The first is, when do you admit it when you’ve made a mistake? And the second is, how should you admit your mistake to others? I also have a special thought leader segment today based on a session I attended at an Agile conference, where we talked about how to deal with a business analyst who made life difficult for her Agile team.

[00:03:10] Today’s podcast is focused on lessons you need to learn if you’re at level two of the four levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader. The good news is you will continue to use these lessons on up through levels three and level four.

Mentoring segment.

Level 2

Tom: [00:03:55] We’re talking about making mistakes. This week, I stopped by a fastfood restaurant to pick up a take-out lunch for my family. While I was waiting in line, I watched the interaction between a customer and an assistant manager. The customer went up to the assistant manager and said, “Hey, you forgot to give me an order of fries.”

[00:04:14] I’ve got to tell you, I was intrigued as I studied the reaction of the assistant manager. She was wrestling with the facts. It was difficult for her to be able to process what the customer was saying. I could see from the look on her face that she was trying to figure out whether in fact a mistake had actually been made.

[00:04:31] Initially, I could tell she was convinced that she was right in counting the items that got put on the customer’s tray, and I could see the emotional struggle she was facing being able to acknowledge that there was a discrepancy. As she processed this input, she began to dispute the customer’s assertion. Now, the customer was confused. The customer insisted that an error had been made. The two of them went back and forth a couple of times and eventually, the customer just gave up and turned to walk away without the French fries.

[00:05:04] As the customer began to walk away, I could she had an aha moment. She recognized that she, in her response, had compounded the error. And then she thought, I’ve got to fix it. How can I fix it? And she says to the customer, “Here, take these fries.”

[00:05:23] Maya Angelou said, “People may forget what you say. They will forget what you do. But people will never ever forget how you make them feel.” Now in this situation, I have no doubt the customer felt frustrated, challenged, and maybe even as if they had been called a liar about an order of fries, really? Oh, my goodness.

[00:05:45] Now, there are two things you could be sure of when it comes to being wrong. First, everybody’s wrong sometimes. And second, nobody likes it when they’re wrong. Now, Dale Carnegie said, “If you could be certain that you were right just 51% of the time, you could go to Wall Street and make a million dollars a day.” We all make mistakes sometimes. What do you do when you realize you’ve made a mistake? How do you handle it?

[00:06:14] Well, two things I want to share with you. First, admit it as quickly as you possibly can. Don’t try to hide it. Disclose the error to the people who are directly affected by it. Just make the information known quickly. Secondly, be as specific as possible about the error. “I made a mistake. I was wrong when I thought this. And the impact of my error is…” And then ask, “How can we fix this? How can I make it up to you?” It’s as simple as that.

[00:06:47] Now, it’s important when you are expressing your mistake, don’t hide, don’t make excuses, don’t justify, don’t be defensive. In fact, if the other person is upset by the information, let them be upset. And one thing to note here. Sometimes, people are upset even if your error was completely accidental. Even if your intent was nothing about them, it just happen to have an impact on them, people will get upset. If your action, or your inaction, your mistake somehow caused hurt to someone else, you need to apologize. It’s not about your intent. It’s about the impact you had on the other person.

[00:07:37] Now, one of my clients is the owner of a fast food restaurant. And when I shared the sorry about the fries with him this week, he was shocked. He said, “It is not worth making a customer feel bad. I tell my team to tell the customer, ‘You’re right. I’m sorry.’ And get them whatever they want.” When it comes to mistakes, admit your mistakes clearly and quickly. And that’s today’s mentoring segment.

Family segment.

Tom: [00:08:21] In today’s family segment, I want to share with you that being the father of seven children, it might not surprise you to know that we do have some conflict. When we have conflict between the kids, we strongly, strongly encourage them to try to work it out together. When it becomes clear that one of them is wrong, in our family, we teach the kids to say, “I’m sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me.”

[00:08:51] Let me take just a minute to break this down. We tell our kids they need to say, “I’m sorry.” I’m sorry, not, “I’m sorry if I offended you.” Not, “I’m sorry you feel that way.” Instead, they need to simply acknowledge they are sorry. No justifications, no defensiveness, no rationalization, just, “I’m sorry.” Next, “I was wrong to do X.”

[00:09:23] One thing that happens from time to time, we’ve got quite a collection of Legos in our house, and kids will build a Lego creation, and somebody’s going to want some of the parts that are in that Lego creation. And then magically, one day, that creation is all in pieces and those parts are distributed, and the person who built it is pretty upset. So when we identify the culprit, the culprit says, “I was wrong to take apart your Lego creation.”

[00:09:47] Now, the thing is this is a tough one. It’s big. At first, you’re just saying, “I’m sorry for the impact my actions had on you, and I own it. I’m sorry for that.” Then we ask them to acknowledge they were wrong. Now, this is tough. This is a big battle. It goes against our pride to say out loud, “I was wrong.” It’s huge. Now, it’s not only important for them to say, “I was wrong,” but also to be very specific. So I mentioned the Legos, right? Taking somebody else’s creation apart, I was wrong to do it without your permission. I was wrong.

[00:10:26] Now, the third thing that we teach our kids to say is, “Will you please forgive me?” This is a business podcast. So I’m not going to go to deep spiritually. But I will say that because of our faith, we believe that when a relationship has been broken, there’s a need for forgiveness in order for there to be true reconciliation. So in our house, when there’s been a break in relationship because someone did something that was wrong that harmed somebody else, our standard is we insist the offender asks for forgiveness.

[00:10:55] Now, look, I’ve been in the workplace long enough to know that this just does not happen at the office. And I’m not suggesting that you should strive to make that happen in your office. But what I am saying is that when you have a willingness to acknowledge the part you played in causing the problem that you and the other person are having, that goes a long way in restoring work relationships. And, yes, at our house, even Dad has to go to a kid sometimes, too often in fact, and say, “I’m sorry. I was wrong to do whatever it was I did. Will you please forgive me?” And that’s today’s family segment.

Thought leader segment.

Tom: [00:11:51] In today’s thought leader segment, I want to share with you something that happened as I attended an Agile conference. Now, this was a fascinating experience involving a series of round table discussions with Agile practitioner.

[00:12:05] As companies make the transition from waterfall projects in software development to Agile software development, one of the key questions is, what happens to the business analyst’s role? What do you do with your business analyst? I’ve had some clients say, “Well, you just fire them. You don’t need them anymore.”

[00:12:23] Now, the waterfall projects, the business analyst are critical to the success of projects. They provide a link between the technology people and the business people. Their job is to translate business language into technical language and to work with a technical team to make sure what gets delivered actually meets the needs of the business.

[00:12:46] Now, Agile depends on multi-disciplinary teams working closely together. And as a result, some Agile practitioners believe the role of the business analyst is just no longer needed. “I’m going to have my developers talk directly to the business people. Why do we need those BAs anyway?”

[00:13:03] And I think that’s problematic because I think BAs can add huge value on Agile teams. But these practitioners sometimes believe that your product owner, that’s a new role, works directly with the development teams to represent the needs of the business. “And then why would we have these extra people who aren’t even really adding value?” Oh, my goodness.

[00:13:27] So that brings us to the conversation around the table at the Agile conference. One team’s scrum master raised the issue he was having with a business analyst who seemed to be working against the interest of the project. Every day, she and that scrum master would have one conflict after another. Nothing was good enough. Nothing was right. The BA seemed to want to control every aspect of the project. How could this be resolved?

[00:13:54] And we asked a lot of questions about the scrum master. We dove into a lot of areas and the conversation revolved around things like functional requirements, and prioritization of features, and backlog, and all those kinds of things, all these other elements relevant to Agile methodology. Now, the scrum master told us that he had chased down most of these ideas and had little success. Now, the group was stumped. We had no clear answers. But then one of the participants had a powerful thought. What if the problem was because the business analyst was actually feeling undervalued?

[00:14:33] In the waterfall world, the business analyst was the source of truth, the oracle who had the answers about what the business needed. But now, some of that role was taken over by the product owner and other parts were handled by the scrum master and other team members.

[00:14:49] The other participant asked, “Is it possible that your BA is struggling because she felt her contributions were no longer needed or no longer valued?” As we kicked this idea around, the scrum master felt this was a powerful insight that he had overlooked. He believed in the value the BA brought to the table and he did appreciate her contributions, but he acknowledged he had not made that clear enough to her and to the rest of the team.

[00:15:15] Sometimes, when we’re dealing with a difficult team member, it’s because they need encouragement, affirmation, and respect. Sometimes, it’s a feeling of insecurity or disrespect that fuels the behaviors that are hurting your team. As the conversation continued, the folks around the table helped brainstorm ways the scrum master could legitimately and honestly express sincere appreciation to the BA for her work.

[00:15:42] Now, I want to make clear and emphasize that we’re talking about sincere appreciation. I’m not saying you need to make stuff up or pretend like she’s adding more value than she is, but really find things that you appreciate and value about what she’s delivering. So let me ask you this. If you’ve got a difficult team member, is there a way you can express sincere appreciation for their contributions? And that’s today’s thought leader segment.

Episode hack.

Tom: [00:16:34] Today’s episode has really been about teamwork, working as a team member, really level two in the four levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader. Now, if you want more detail on the four levels of thinking, check out Season 1, episode 10, or you can download a copy of the four levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader from the episode page on brighthillgroup.com.

[00:16:57] Now, today’s episode, we talked about showing sincere and honest appreciation for a team member’s contributions. We also talked about how my kids handle it or how they’re supposed to handle it when they blow it with a sibling. For today’s episode hack, I want you to think about whether you need to step up and acknowledge a mistake.

[00:17:17] In the case of the Mars spacecraft, it was that conversion from pounds to newtons that caused the spacecraft to crash. Now, what I thought was fascinating about that experience is that engineers did have some indication that something was wrong because as it was headed to Mars, they had to make 10 times as many course corrections as they had planned to make. What I think is fascinating is no one took a look to see why they were wrong about all those course corrections, and is the end of the mission and a waste of a $125 million as a result.

[00:17:50] So let me ask you, is there a way that you have been wrong that’s having an impact on the team. If so, first, admit it as quickly as you possibly can. Don’t try to hide it. Disclose the error to the people who are directly affected by it. And secondly, be as specific as possible. If you took apart their Lego creation, tell them you took apart their Lego creation and say, “I’m sorry. I was wrong when I did this. Here’s the impact. How can we fix it? How can I make it up to you?” And that’s today’s episode hack.

Closeout

[00:18:30] If you like the podcast, can I ask you to give me a hand? It turns out it’s a big deal to have a rating in iTunes. Now, I’ve heard other podcasters asking for ratings and reviews, and I wondered why they kept going after it again, and again, and again. Do you want to know? Because almost no one actually does it. It only takes a minute, and it’s a huge help.

[00:18:54] So why is that? Great ratings helps iTunes decide that this podcast is worth promoting. And when you put up a rating or a review, it helps it appear as a top podcast in the iTunes search. Could you please take a moment to do it right now? There’re three simple steps. One, go to the iTunes store, podcasts. Two, search for Becoming a Geek Leader. And three, give the podcast a great rating. Thanks.

[00:19:26] This is Tom Cooper. Thanks for listening. Be sure to join me next time for another episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. Join me and my mission of discovering better ways to lead others at work and at home.

Listen now!

In this episode:

Resource Downloads:

Trust Contract – Get this list of good business qualities to help your team visualize and promise to keep the characteristics of a good team member.

The 4 Levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader graphic* – This document explains the details of each level and helps you find which level you currently belong to. *Updated from last episode.

Transcript:

Man: Becoming a Geek Leader. Season two. Episode one.

Sponsored by Geek to Great

Man: [00:00:07] Have you ever had one of those really annoying customers who always seems to be looking to start an argument? Have you ever had a team member who just couldn’t let go and delegate work, but was always complaining about being buried? I’ve been there and I know how frustrating that can feel. I also know these things don’t generally get better on their own. People need help learning exactly how to communicate, delegate, manage conflict with others, and plan more effectively.

[00:00:38] Now, you know it would be great if you had a simple plan to address those needs, but you’re crazy busy too, right? That’s why I created the Geek to Great 101 program. It’s a simple system designed for you to take a portion of your already scheduled team meetings to play a video for your team, ask a few questions from the Leader’s Guide, and your team members will be able to fill in their own personalized action plan. It’s a great way to put a simple professional development program in place. Your team members will be able to share their plan with you, and you can help them actually do it.

[00:01:14] Train your whole team for less than $500. Find out more information and get immediate access to your first free lesson at brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks. That’s brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks.

Tom: [00:01:33] Welcome to the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. My name is Tom Cooper. As a geek, I’m on a mission to figure out better ways to lead others at work and at home. Through the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast, I’m sharing what I’m learning so I can help make you more effective at leading people too. Ready?

Introduction

[00:01:55] Welcome to season two. I can’t believe I’m here already. It seems like season one just flew right by and I’m excited about what we’ve got in store for you for season two. In season one episode ten, I introduced the four levels of thinking as a geek leader. Now, in season two, you can look forward to even more action-oriented ideas about how to be more effective in getting people to want to help you. We’re still gonna have the segments you’ve enjoyed before, and now I’ll also be tying the ideas and answers to the Coach’s Mailbox questions to the level of thinking that you need for that answer.

[00:02:36] Now, in today’s episode, just in case you missed out on the season finale of season one, I’m gonna be briefly reviewing the four levels of leadership that you need as a geek leader. And then we’ll talk about how to develop a team culture even if your company already has a culture. And especially if that culture is, well, not great. In the Coach’s Mailbox segment, I’m gonna talk about how do you deal with a team member who is incredibly self-absorbed. And then finally, we’ll wrap up with a family segment on the importance of prototyping to get great design and great results.

[00:03:16] Also, don’t forget that you can download from the website a one-pager with the four levels of thinking as a geek leader. And I want to encourage you to get your copy. But right now, let’s jump right into that reminder about exactly what the four levels of thinking are.

Man: [00:03:34] The four levels of thinking as a geek leader. Level one. Individual. At level one, you may even be a superstar technical resource. Level one focuses you on improving your technical skills.

[00:03:51] Level two. Team member. Level two is where you work well with others, and together you all succeed.

[00:04:00] Level three. Team leader. Level three. As the boss of a team, your job is to recruit and develop individuals and team members who follow your lead.

[00:04:14] Level four. Team builder. At level four, you’re developing team members and team leaders who will take over and grow their own teams as they become great leaders themselves.

Tom: [00:04:29] In the mentoring segment today, I want to talk about creating a culture for your team. Now, this segment is focused on thinking at level three, the team leader level. But I want to point out if you’re a team member, if you’re level two, your job is going to be embracing the culture that your leader sets and participating there. But as we dive into this content, think about level three.

Mentoring segment.

Tom: [00:05:33] I remember back in the day I was working for a Fortune 500 company. I was in the IT department and we were so big that our people had people. We were bureaucratic. We were stovepiped. We were incredibly inefficient. Each department was responsible for a specific set of work. Other departments were responsible for a different set of work. Heaven help you if the work you needed crossed the departmental boundary because nobody wanted to step into the gap.

[00:06:03] When I became a formal leader, I stepped in to lead a team in that type of environment. It was my team’s job to build interfaces that would integrate enterprise systems. That meant our purpose was to fill the gaps between systems. The problem is there were far too many gaps for my team to be able to handle them all. Our project list was a mile long and our team capacity was not huge. Our operational responsibilities, just the day-to-day keeping-the-crank-turning stuff, consumed a majority of my team’s availability. It was a mess.

[00:06:41] In addition, at the time I stepped in, our team had been struggling with a leader who was frankly a little over his head. He had a great deal of challenges in his personal life that were effecting his sleep and his capacity at work. And for a long time, he was literally falling asleep in meetings. He focused on low-priority items and he frustrated his peers and his leaders.

[00:07:01] Now, when I took over, I had a small team of just a few people. How in the world was I going to establish a team culture in the face of a corporate machine that was optimized for no one? I didn’t have the formal authority to do much of anything. In fact, I used to say the default rule was unless you were explicitly granted permission to do anything, the answer was no. Don’t do it.

[00:07:27] However, in the face of opposition, I was able to build and train a team where I wooed multiple people to take significant pay cuts to join my team. Now, that’s not because I was chintzy. It’s because the corporate pay structure was so poor they paid far under market, and in order for me to recruit the right people I had to talk people into being willing to work for less money.

[00:07:49] The thing is they loved working with each other in spite of the fact that they had given up some income to join the team. One of them said to me, “Truly you have changed my life.” Years after I left, one of them said to me, “Tom, when you left, the magic left.” Now, here’s the thing, I am not magic and I didn’t have amazing powers. So what did I do?

[00:08:15] And an interaction that is as unique to your team that augments the corporate culture…because the company I worked for actually didn’t have horrible corporate culture, but it had a number of things that caused people’s behaviors to be antisocial. So what we did was we built a culture that really was interdependent for our team. Our city within a city had a different set of standards than the rest of the organization had.

[00:08:41] One of the first things I did was I said out loud what those standards would be. I didn’t have them this well-organized at the time, but they fell into the following categories. There were three of them. One, “We’re going to look out for each other.” Two, “As your boss, I will always have your back.” And three, “Our team will aspire to be excellent in the work that we do.” We look out for each other, I will always have your back as your boss, and our team will aspire to excellence in the work that we do.

[00:09:17] Let me start with looking out for each other. I told people that my expectation was that we were going to be a team. We were going to work together. We were going to help each other out. That meant we were going to make sure that the needs of the team were covered, rather than just my interests being covered.

[00:09:34] For example, I would literally say to my team, “I have lots of stupid ideas. I know that. And when we’re working out how to solve a problem, how to figure out how to do something, if you think my idea is idiotic, tell me. I will hear you out. We will go for unanimous agreement. That’s the best possible situation. If we can get everybody on the same page, that is the ideal situation.

[00:10:05] But we understand that unanimous agreement is not always possible. If the majority of the team concludes that an idea that you personally hate is the best available approach, we want to hear about it right up to the point that we make the decision. After the decision is made, we are all going to defend the decision in front of customers, and we are not going to say, ‘I told you so.'”

[00:10:34] See, the problem we could run into is if one person was strongly in disagreement for an idea, they could say, “See, I told you that was a dumb idea.” That doesn’t help build a team. It builds the individual up for saying they’re right. Also, we were no longer going to throw team members under the bus. If one team member dropped the ball, we all dropped the ball. We’ll fix it, but we’re not going to say, “Well, John insisted on doing that. I thought it was a dumb idea, but John did it anyway.”

[00:11:04] If a team member was having some challenges in their personal life, we were going to find a way to cover for them. We’re going to make it possible for them to focus on the important non-work stuff. Because we weren’t a group of people who were individual contributors, we were a team. We were going to work as a team. We were going to win as a team. We were going to lose as a team. Period.

[00:11:26] The last section that I want to talk about here, under looking out for each other, is we would look for opportunities to be positive. Not only would we skip out on public criticism of a team member, we’d also intentionally, specifically, proactively look for ways to catch each other doing something good. And we would be intentional about noticing and giving credit to somebody else rather than looking out for ourselves.

[00:11:56] The goal was to set an example of saying good things about each other. Now, I will tell you that one little thing makes a big difference in team interaction. And why? Because it’s so rare. So much of the time, so many of us are looking out for our own interest and trying to find a way to tell everybody how great we are, that when somebody says, “Hey, I think Sally did a fantastic job,” it stands out because it’s just not done.

[00:12:26] Okay. So that’s looking out for each other. Now let me talk about, “As your boss I will always have your back.” I saw my job as a team leader to make sure team members had everything they needed to be successful. It was my job to do everything I could do to anticipate the problems they were going to run into and remove impediments from my team. I could only be successful if they were successful.

[00:12:51] When they dropped the ball, and it did happen, I never threw them under the bus. My job was to protect my team members. I’d share credit, even publicly praising my team members to my boss. When the boss would say, “Hey, Tom, good job on getting the system implemented,” I would say, “You know, I really couldn’t have done it without Desai. He was all over that thing. He took care of it. And Otto was the man who was checking out the details and making sure we got all that stuff right.” I wasn’t looking for opportunities to build myself up. I was looking for opportunities to build up my team members.

[00:13:28] Now, sometimes it happened where a team member made a decision that was really, I mean, even indefensible. They just made a bad choice. Everybody does that sometimes and nobody wants to get thrown under the bus in that situation.

[00:13:42] So I’m in a meeting and a customer is really unhappy and one of the guys on my team had really blown it. Rather than saying, “I’m going to talk to so and so. I can’t believe he made that decision,” I would say, “That’s a decision we made.” I wouldn’t say, “John did what? That’s crazy. Why would John…I’ll take care of this.” That doesn’t help John.

[00:14:03] Remember, I said we were gonna say positive things in public. Now, if it was obviously wrong, and sometimes it was, again, I would say, “That’ a decision we made. If we need to revisit it, we can do that. Let me go talk to the team and see what we can come up with.” See, we win as a team, we lose as a team. I made a commitment that in private our team would be transparent and in public we were going to back each other up. And I’ll tell you, that a big difference.

[00:14:33] So we talked about looking out for each other and how the boss needs to have the team member’s back. Let’s talk about our team aspiring to be excellent in the work that we do. Here’s the thing, most technical experts have made their careers, you’ve probably made your career, on the back of your technical skills. I told the team members we would aspire to be excellent in our technical work. Of course we would. That’s necessary. We got to do that, but it’s not sufficient. It’s not enough. We needed to be excellent in technical skills and have business skills and have people skills.

[00:15:10] Now, I challenged my team, when it comes to professional development, to think about two additional specific areas. I told them I was going to measure their success differently than they’d ever been measured before. Of course you’re going to do well in technical skills. We’re a team of technical experts. But I also expected them to grow their skills in dealing with people and in understanding and communicating the language of our business customers.

[00:15:43] So my job is to be the chief cheerleader. My job is to help team members grow. But nothing happens without a plan. So the first challenged area that I laid out was they needed to be technical experts, and deal with people, and communicate in the language of our business customers. And then also they needed to have a plan. I challenged my team members to create a professional development plan that was gonna help them grow technically, in business skills, and in people skills.

[00:16:16] Now look, not everybody is cut out to be the front person, the lead team member, the one who’s out in front, or the one who’s leading meetings. That’s okay. I wasn’t expecting the team members to become like used car salesmen with a plaid jacket and a loud tie standing up in front of the room, rah rah rah. That’s not it at all. I was challenging them to not be the guy that was so difficult to work with that nobody wanted to work with them. They had to be okay at those kinds of things.

[00:16:45] So those are the three areas that we talked about. “We’re gonna look out for each other,” “I will always have your back,” and, “Our team will aspire to excellence.” Now, I made lots of mistakes as a leader, but we learned together and we grew together. And we trusted each other. We supported each other. We created that city within the city, a culture within a larger corporate culture.

[00:17:08] Now, the key thing here is culture is the idea that we can trust each other. We can predict what the team is going to do and we’re going to look out for each other, to have each other’s back. One of my mentors is a man by the name of Scott Fay, and Scott has a skill in fixing things that are broken. He comes into organizations and teams and he identifies where the problems are, and he finds ways to fix things.

[00:17:34] Scott owns a number of companies and he worked with one of his teams to create what he called a trust contract. And I love this idea; a trust contract, and I’ll include a copy of his trust contract on the webpage so that you can see the example. The trust contract answers questions like, “What will I do when I’m convinced that I can’t deliver on a promise I’ve made?” Having that type of discussion with your team to create their own trust contract, wow. That’s really powerful. And that can help you be seen as someone

Coach’s Mailbox.

Tom: [00:18:45] This next question really is targeted at level three, but it’s important to note that the self-absorbed team member is probably operating at level one, and you’re going to ask that team member to step up from level one to level two. So let me remind you what level two is.

Man: [00:19:04] Level two. Team member. Level two is where you work well with others and together you all succeed.

Tom: [00:19:15] For today’s Ask the Coach segment, I have a question that I get all the time. Today I got an email from Ian. He writes, “I’m a leader in an engineering firm. I’ve got a talented young engineer, we’ll call him Joe, who has stepped into a management role. Now, he’s doing an adequate job, but he is frankly struggling sometimes. In particular, his team members feel like he’s demanding they do things his way, and he doesn’t seem to notice how much his command and control, “do it my way” attitude, upsets them. I don’t think he sees it at all. His attitude seems to be, ‘Look, we’re talking about engineering. What do your feelings have to do with it?’ How can I help Joe develop a better sense of self-awareness?”

[00:20:01] Wow. This is a common question, as I mentioned, and my clients do run into this all the time. The other day, I came across a quote from Neil deGrasse Tyson. He said “In science, when human behavior enters the equation, things go nonlinear. That’s why physics is easy and sociology is hard.” You know, we’re responsible for being sociologists as leaders. It’s something that we probably don’t talk about enough, or don’t talk about at all.

[00:20:32] But the fact is that when you think about something going nonlinear, that’s right. The most predictable thing about people is that people are unpredictable. We like to think of ourselves as engineers who are rational creatures, but the fact is we are emotional creatures who come up with a rational justification for whatever decision we make.

[00:20:55] Most of us are so comfortable in the rational, quantifiable space we might not even realize that we are making decisions emotionally and then coming up with a rational justification. When it comes to self-awareness, what you’re really talking about is the question of empathy. And I’ll tell you that sometimes we don’t realize how important empathy is to our relationships and to our success.

[00:21:20] As technology folks, sometimes we feel like the best technical solution is all that matters and we focus on that. We don’t even realize what’s happening. So Ian, one question I might be inclined to ask Joe is this. Joe, I’m curious. If what you sincerely believed about working with your team was wrong, would you want to know?

[00:21:45] See, the problem is that Joe believes that his way is the best way, and he’s been successful in his career so far as an individual contributor relying on his training, and his thinking, and his judgment, and his work ethic. And all those things have combined to lead to his success. I see this all the time. This approach, my way, has worked so well for so long that sometimes we believe this is all that we need to do to be successful. But as you know, technical skill is necessary but not sufficient. It takes more than excellent engineering to be an engineering leader.

[00:22:24] I might say, “Joe, we all know engineers who love the technical work and who bristle at working in a team or interacting directly with customers.” My question for you is, is it your goal? Do you want to be one of those engineers, or do you want your work to impact more people? I’d probably go on to say what you believe about technical acumen being all you need for success is just not true.

[00:22:48] Now, I’m curious, is that something you’d like to work on? My guess is that, for Joe, he’s never taken the time to think about that. He’s been frustrated perhaps with his lack of cooperation from team members, and he has had success when he’s taken on the work. We have expressions like, “Well, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.” And that’s because we haven’t set the expectations appropriately. We haven’t managed the team members appropriately. We haven’t fought through and communicated what it is we need.

[00:23:25] And one of the challenges we have is that we sort of expect that whatever communication mode I prefer is correct and everybody else is weird. And so the challenge is when you think differently than I do, when you communicate differently than I do, then I think that you’re broken.

[00:23:43] There’s a tool I like to use when I’m working with teams. It’s called the DISC Assessment; D-I-S-C. DISC provides an easy-to-understand model of how you prefer to communicate and interact with others. Many times, with folks like Joe, just understanding that not everyone thinks like me and not everyone communicates like me and that’s okay, just that idea can be a big breakthrough for my clients. DISC is one of those assessments that breaks people into four quadrants. That means that 25% of the population thinks like you, communicates like you, but 75% doesn’t. And that’s okay.

[00:24:21] And a lot of times, just having that understanding that people are different, and different is not wrong can be a huge help to my clients. And once we understand that people are different from us and that’s okay, we can work on understanding what it is that they want, what it is they need, and we can adapt our communications and adapt our style to what they prefer. And that can be a massive help to effectiveness. It can transform the way the team interacts.

[00:24:48] So let me give you an example. Are you a task-focused, bottom-line, high-speed performer? Or maybe you’re a facts-focused, get-the-details-right expert. See, those are just two of the four options. And you can see easily how a focus on moving fast might come into conflict with taking the time to get the details right.

[00:25:09] See, if I value speed and you value quality and I give you a fast answer that’s wrong, you’re probably not going to be too happy with me. If you think that you need to write a 7-paragraph email with a 10-page attachment, and you’re communicating with a bottom-line, high-speed, task-focused person, you’re both gonna be frustrated.

[00:25:29] DISC assessments are inexpensive. They can give you great insights about you and your team. My clients find that when they’re teams begin to understand this model of communication and the way they interact, that their team communication improves and their understanding of others improves, and team members are much more effective in working with each other.

[00:25:47] So, my key takeaway for you, Ian, is that the first step is to introduce your idea that not everyone thinks and acts like he does. Different is not wrong. And not only is different not wrong, but diversity of background, diversity of thought, diversity of approach and opinion can lead to far, far more elegant technical solutions.

[00:26:10] A challenge we run into is the process is a little messy and is probably going to fall outside Joe’s comfort zone. But if he really wants to deliver great technical work, he’s gonna have to grow beyond delivering all the work himself and really get the best possible performance from others. And that’s today’s Coach’s Mailbox segment.

Family segment.

Tom: [00:26:48] During today’s family segment, I’m talking about prototyping. Now, this skill is appropriate for all levels of thinking as a geek leader, but it’s most applicable at level one.

Man: [00:26:59] Level one. Individual. At level one, you may even be a superstar technical resource. Level one focuses you on improving your technical skills.

Tom: [00:27:14] Now, one of the things that I love about having a wife who loves learning and teaching as much as I do is that we home-school our kids. Now, homeschooling is not for everybody, but it really works for our family and it fits the needs of our kids. One of the things that we do is we participate in a co-op where we get together with other homeschooling families and we work on classes and activities. And one of my boys is working on a group project right now.

[00:27:39] In their History class, they’re studying Vikings and the teachers assign them to come up with a project that reflects that time period. My son and three other teen boys, they’re in a group together, and they decided to make Viking weapons. I mean, they’re boys after all, right? We decided we were gonna help them out by setting them up in the workshop to begin to work on creating those tools.

[00:28:05] I’ve been supervising the boys in the woodshop as they design, manufacture, and assemble those weapons. This has been a massive learning experience for them, and I gotta tell you, it has been a blast watching them work on problem-solving. But it’s not the most efficient approach, because they wanna jump right in and work on the cool stuff.

[00:28:23] They’re learning that making a plan and prototyping actually can save them a ton of time. If you start out with a really hard design idea and you don’t prototype, boy can you waste a lot of materials. That process of creating a smaller scale or even full-size items out of easier-to-work-with materials has helped them think about how to simplify their design, how to choose different materials, how to work as a team to figure it out.

[00:28:51] For example, they decided they were going to do an axe and they thought it’d be really cool to have a curved axe blade with a beveled edge. Now, that seems like a great idea, until you start thinking about now exactly what type of tools do you use to cut a curve? And when you cut the curve, how do you do a beveled edge to make it sharp? Now, it was a beautiful design, but it was really complex, and so they started, and I challenged them to start by sketching out their ideas and then create a sample from some MDFs, some cheap disposable materials.

[00:29:25] And that gave them an opportunity to learn what their tools could do and what the tools couldn’t do. And when they recognized how much time and effort it was going to take to make the number of cuts they were going to need to make and the amount of finish work it was going to take, they decided to go for a simpler solution. Which brings me to the point of this segment. What are you working on right now that could benefit from a prototype?

[00:29:49] I remember I used to send my developers to client meetings and I would tell them to stop by the printer and pull some blank paper out of the printer and take a pencil to draw out the screens rather than do an HTML wireframe. In that process, we learned a ton about business process and actual customer needs as we drew it out together. We walked through the problem together. So let me ask you, what could you draw out as a team? What lessons might you be able to learn more quickly, and how might that affect your design? And that’s today’s family segment.

Episode Hack.

Tom: [00:30:48] In today’s episode, we’ve covered three big ideas. One, how do you create a team culture that might be different from your company’s culture? Two, what do you do when you have a team member who has low self-awareness? And three, how could prototyping or whiteboarding help you learn faster and speed up your delivery? For today’s episode hack, I wanna jump back and focus on the one idea about building trust on your team.

[00:31:19] Is there somebody on your team who would benefit from increasing trust with you? What would it take to make a difference with that person? Is it follow-up? Maybe following through and doing exactly what you said you were going to do. Is it speaking up to address an issue? Or maybe is it shutting up and stopping complaining? Is it taking initiative, or is it giving room for other people to take initiative?

[00:31:49] What specific step can you take to adapt your style to meet the need that they have? That is going to help you build some trust. For more ideas about building trust, I want you to go to the website and check out the sample trust contract on the resource page and ask yourself if you’re doing the things that are needed for you to be trustworthy. If you find a gap, I wanna encourage you to close that gap. And that’s today’s episode hack.

Closeout

[00:32:19] Is the podcast helping you? Make sure you don’t miss out on the latest info. Head over right now to brighthillgroup.com/join to be sure that you stay in the loop. When you do, you get my PDF, become a geek leader in two easy steps, and you’ll be notified as soon as new podcast episodes are available. Plus, you’ll get updates and ideas that I don’t share on the podcast. Head over to brighthillgroup/join right now.

[00:32:52] This is Tom Cooper. Thanks for listening. Be sure to join me next time for another episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. Join me in my mission of discovering better ways to lead others at work and at home.

Listen now!

In this episode:

1. Individual
2. Team Performer
3. Team Leader
4. Team Builder

Resource Download:

4 Levels of Thinking as a Geek Leader – This easy-to-read graphic clearly illustrates the 4 Levels of Thinking, individually breaking down each level.

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Transcript:

Recording: [00:00:00] Become the Geek Leader, Season One, Episode 10.

Sponsored by Geek to Great

[00:00:11] We all want to grow our skills and improve the work we do. But who has time for that? In this online blended learning program, you and your team will gain practical skills in topics like time management, dealing with difficult people, improving communication, and so much more.

[00:00:31] Train your whole team for less than $500. Each lesson is 30 minutes or less, so it fits right into your current team meeting schedule. Find more information and get immediate access to your first free lesson at brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks. That’s brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks, so that you can get access to the Geek to Great 101 course.

[00:01:02] Welcome to the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. My name is Tom Cooper. As a geek, I’m on a mission to figure out better ways to lead others at work and at home. Through the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast, I’m sharing what I’m learning, so I can help make you more effective at leading people too. Ready?

Introduction

[00:01:25] As I get started today, I want to offer a hearty and heartfelt thanks to my son Joel for stepping in for me for the last episode. Wow, was I out of it. And I appreciate him for helping me out and for making sure that you had a new episode, too.

[00:01:41] I cannot believe how quickly we got here. This is episode 10! It’s the end of season one. When I started planning this podcast back in the summer of 2015, I wanted season one to focus on how to help you as a highly technical expert get even better at influencing the people around you.

[00:02:03] During today’s episode, I want to take a quick look back at the season as a whole and give you some insights into what I have planned for season two as well. Now, during season one, I planned a set of topics that I know that folks like you are facing every day. You also have my promise that I’m gonna be sharing with you the things that I’m learning as I work with clients.

[00:02:29] In this finale episode, I want to introduce you to one of those learnings that I’ve come across. I’ve discovered that there are four levels of thinking that all geeks develop as they grow in their leadership. Now, I’m gonna share with you those four levels today, and I’m gonna show how what I’ve already covered in season one links directly to those levels of thinking.

[00:02:53] In our episode hack today, I’m gonna help you figure out where you are and what your next step is in the process. Let’s get started.

Thought Leader Segment.

[00:03:05] In the Thought Leader Segment, Tom brings in ideas from today’s best thought leaders.

Tom: [00:03:24] Let’s talk about the four levels of thinking for geek leaders. Level one is individual; I’m an individual contributor and my work matters. Level two, team performer; I’m more than just a technical expert, I’m a part of a team making things happen. Level three, team leader; now I’m responsible for actually leading a team of others. And level four, team builder; I need to help develop other team leaders who will grow more teams.

[00:04:02] Now, I’ve got a download for you on the webpage for this episode that is just a one pager on the four levels of thinking for geek leadership. And I want to encourage you to take a moment to go ahead and download that.

[00:04:16] Most of us only get as far as level one or level two, and frankly nobody ever talks to us about levels beyond that. Whether we’re an individual contributor or a member of a team, we might get some guidance about what to do with that. But people don’t talk to us about what does it mean to become the boss or to think about growing other bosses.

[00:04:39] In future episodes, I’m gonna go into deeper detail about how do you move from your current level to a higher level. And in this episode, as I mentioned, I’m gonna go back and talk about how I’ve already covered critical ideas that can help you on your journey.

[00:04:56] As I look back over season one, one thing I realize is I didn’t spend much time at all talking about level one. Now, I think that’s because I’m assuming that when you’re listening to a podcast called Becoming a Geek Leader, you’ve already realized that you have to go beyond your technical skills if you want to deliver higher-level work.

[00:05:18] The idea in level one, just at its core, is that when we start in our career, we get geekier and we get paid more. The deeper our technical skills go, the stronger our technical skills go, the more we get paid. The challenge is that there’s a limit to that, because that stops working after about four years, maybe five years into our career. We get stuck. We don’t get the promotions and raises we expect. We’re frustrated about it. Or, even worse, maybe we get promoted to a job where we’re supposed to lead others, but we don’t know anything about how to do that and we get really frustrated.

[00:05:55] In level one, with that level of awareness, with that level of thinking, we become aware that technical skills are necessary but not sufficient. It takes more than geek skills to help us move ahead in our career. I touched on this in episode three when I was asking what is your plan for career development?

[00:06:18] Fundamentally, it comes down to this question. What is your plan for career growth? Understanding what your plan is, then you think, “What skills do I need to get that next job?” And then, “What am I doing to get those skills?” But, again, let’s go back to this question. “What if my employer’s not gonna pay for me to get the training or growth that I want? What do I do?”

[00:06:44] Well, Dan Hardy asked me this question. He said, “What’s your E2E ratio?” E2E, your education to entertainment ratio. How much do you spend on your personal development versus how much do you spend on your entertainment? If you’re like me, ouch; it didn’t feel good.

[00:07:06] What if you spent half as much on your personal development as you do on the sum total you spend on movies, eating out, hobbies, and cable? Do you even know how much you spend on those things? All right. So maybe you look at that and you go, “Man, I couldn’t spend that much.” And I think, actually, if you add it up, you’ll be stunned at how much you do spend on just those categories.

[00:07:30] But let me ask you this. What if you invested 10% of your income in yourself? What if you bet on you just 10% of the income that you make? Just think about this for a second. What conferences would you be able to attend? What courses would you be able to take? What would happen in your career if you had a coach helping you get to that next level? I want you to think about your E2E ratio. What’s your education to entertainment ratio?

[00:08:05] I came back to thinking about that idea a little bit more in episode seven when I asked the question, “Are you working on the strategically important stuff?” And I have to say, when I was working for the hotel company and I was using software deployment to solve problems on computers with viruses as well as get the reservation system up and running, I loved that project. I loved that work. I could see exactly how it was helping our customers and how it was helping with our sales. And it was fantastic.

[00:08:38] The problem was that I was part of a hospitality brand. I wasn’t part of a technology firm. And the company saw value in the software distribution stuff, but really it was fairly limited in terms of the value that it brought. I invested a lot of energy in that, thinking that it was a strategic help to the company. Don’t get me wrong. It helped the company. But it didn’t help the company enough to continue to get the support that we needed to do it organizationally, or to help me from a career standpoint.

[00:09:10] What if you’re looking at your projects and you’re looking at the strategic problems the company is working on and you just don’t see any way that your project is tied into a strategic problem? Well, I have to tell you, it was painful for me to recognize that when I was working on software deployment and there’s only so much value to those solutions. No matter how elegant they are, no matter how cool they were, no matter what great things they did, they only did so much.

[00:09:37] If that’s the case, maybe what you’re working on just isn’t that important to the organization. If you want to have your career continue to move forward, you probably are going to need to look for opportunities that you can work on projects that really do tackle the big-rock problems that your organizations have.

[00:09:56] I spent too long working on projects like software deployment that just didn’t have enough value to the organization and I missed out on career opportunities because of it. In the time that I worked there, I was there for 10 years, for heaven’s sakes, I could have changed jobs. I could have changed departments. I could have even changed major divisions, and I could have continued to help the company solve big problems.

[00:10:16] I stuck around because I loved what I was doing and it limited me. I think I could have found a job that I loved in another part of the company that I would have been happy with, too. I just wasn’t looking because I thought, “Oh, this is really important.” Unfortunately, it wasn’t important enough.

[00:10:32] So those were a couple of areas in season one when I talked about that level one, that individual level. Now let’s turn the corner and talk a little bit about level two, team member. Performing as a team. In this thinking, I’m part of a team, and I need to work with others. Now, a good part of season one was exactly that; was working with others. In fact, in episode four, I talked about dealing with difficult people.

[00:11:06] Now, there is another topic that I want to touch on here. And it’s a danger. It’s actually something that we do mentally that can be a big problem for us. And the concept that I want to share with you is the idea of the bozo bit. And we know that bits are either one or zero; they’re either on or they’re off. And if a bit is on, then it’s 100% on, and if it’s off, it’s 100% off.

[00:11:34] Sometimes what we do is we decide that somebody is a bozo. Here’s what that looks like. You’re in a meeting, and they say something that is completely off topic. They refer to the language that you write in as the wrong language. They misunderstand something that you think is foundational to the technical work that you do. And you think, “This person, I mean, how could they possibly be in this position and think or believe or act like that? That person is a bozo.”

[00:12:11] When you have set the bozo bit in the on position, now all of a sudden it doesn’t matter what they say. If they say anything, as far as you’re concerned, you have a filter. And your filter says, “A stupid person said this.” And when you believe that a stupid person said this, all of a sudden you don’t hear them anymore. It doesn’t matter.

[00:12:40] They might come up with something that is insightful. Something that is useful. Something that is helpful. But you won’t be able to hear it because your filter is gonna say, “A stupid person said this.” Now, as I said, in some cases it’s true that whoever’s talking has no idea what they’re talking about. But let me challenge that. Because, statistically speaking, it’s a very small percentage of people who are hopeless idiots. It is more likely that they are doing something that works for them. They’re optimizing for something different than what you’re optimizing for. They’re being recognized and rewarded for different things than you’re being recognized or rewarded for.

[00:13:30] And it’s your job to figure out, are they a hopeless idiot and you were correct to set the bozo bit? Or maybe, just maybe, you’ve made a mistake. Maybe you shouldn’t have set the bozo bit for this particular person. So if you’re analyzing whether you’ve incorrectly set the bozo bit to the on position, here’s some things to think about.

[00:13:54] One key tool for influencing others is making sure that they feel heard, listening well. In episode two, I gave you some specific tips to help you listen more effectively. Mark Goulston, who is the author of a book called Just Listen. One of the key points that he made is that people are craving to be understood. We’re so busy, nobody has time to think. And we’re just dying to have a safe place where we can be heard.

[00:14:27] The key point that he brought up is the idea about being a first-class noticer. Now, a noticer goes beyond just listening to the facts. It’s not looking or watching or seeing what’s happening. Those things are kind of passive. What he is thinking about and encouraging us to think about is, as you’re talking, look at the engagement level of the other person. And that our job is to be present and to be attentive and to be intensely curious about the other person. And that’s hard. It takes a lot of energy.

[00:15:10] And the key thing about being intensely curious about the other person, it starts with noticing their body language. Are they making eye contact with you? What’s their hand movement? Is it really subdued or is it really intense? Are they moving closer to you or farther away from you? Do they seem kind of open with their arms and their legs open? Or are they kind of closed off, folded arms and crossed legs and that sort of thing?

[00:15:36] What you want to be doing is being intentional about noticing what’s going on. Another part of working well with others is resolving conflict. And we know this is a constant challenge. In episode nine, I shared with you a simple way to resolve conflict with other people. So think x, y, z. In situation x, when you did y, had z impact. So, what was the situation? It was during the team meeting. Not, “you always,” or, “you have a tendency to,” or “people say you,” no.

[00:16:16] In this specific situation, it was during the team meeting when the boss asked for my ideas about the project, so that’s situation x. You did y. You rolled your eyes. You folded your arms. You sighed. You looked away. You had z impact. It felt like her boss rejected my idea because of your reaction, at least in part. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the way it felt.

[00:16:43] Now let’s put all that stuff together. When you go see your coworker, let’s call him Joe, you can say, “Joe, I want to have a great working relationship with you and something happened recently that upset me. Can we talk about it? The other day when we were in the team meeting and the boss asked for my input, while I was talking, I noticed that you rolled your eyes, you folded your arms and you sighed. And, man, it just seemed to me like the boss was watching your reaction and he shot my idea down. Now, I’m really confused and frustrated about it, because I thought you liked my idea when we talked about it before. I didn’t like the way that worked out and it felt like you were kind of shooting my ideas down, too. Can you help me understand what happened?”

[00:17:28] Now, you’re not attacking him. You’re not criticizing him. You’re saying, “Hey, you did this thing and it had this impact. What was going on?” So listening and resolving conflict. And in episode one, I talked about how you can get more work done as you cooperate with other people. The other day I was working in my office and I heard this.

Stephanie: [00:17:52] Why doesn’t anybody play with me?

Tom: [00:17:59] That was my daughter reenacting a scenario that happens on a pretty regular basis around here. How do we get other people to want to get involved? She was so frustrated that she couldn’t get people to help her with her goal of playing a game that she got more and more frustrated until she finally could not stand it. So how could she get them to want to play with her? It’s an important question and it ties in exactly to what we’ve been talking about on today’s episode. How do we get people to want to go along with the stuff we want to do?

[00:18:32] People’s favorite radio station is WIIFM: What’s In It For Me? Now, in my daughter’s case, she was crystal clear on what was important to her, what’s in it for Stephanie, but not so clear on why others needed to stop what they were doing to play along with her, to go along with the game that she had in mind.

[00:18:53] I’ve got to tell you, that’s how it is at work, too. If other people on your team cannot figure out why they should stop what they’re doing and play with you, they’re not going to play with you. Whether it’s delivering the work that you need or whether it’s attending your meeting, or whatever. And so you need to think about how you can get people to want to play along. And it really comes down to what’s in it for them. If you can focus your communication around what’s in it for them as opposed to what’s in it for you, you’re much more likely to get the equipment, or the software, or the people, or the time, or the cooperation that you need.

[00:19:37] I came back to some of these ideas in episode eight when I talked about how it requires more than just great engineering skills. It’s really about relationships. What are you doing to build relationships? Today I want to be a little bit like my dad. I’m not telling you what I think. I’m telling you what I know. One of the things that I absolutely did wrong when it came to my time in corporate America was that I focused on being the best whatever I happened to be at the time. I worked hard to understand my job and do that as well as I possibly could.

[00:20:15] So, you might be asking, well, “How could that be wrong?” Well, it’s not wrong to be good at your job. But one critical mistake that I made was I didn’t make enough connections with other people along the way. Let me suggest that when it comes to career opportunities, it’s not just about how competent you are at your work. In fact, I’d argue it’s at least equally important who you know and who knows you.

[00:20:46] Now when you think about who knows you, how do people know you? I recently went on a brief trip with a group of folks from my church. And we spent a few days working on projects together where we helped an organization that provides disaster relief. While we were working shoulder to shoulder, one of the other participants said to me, “Tom, I’ve learned more about you in the last two days working beside you than I have in the last six months seeing you every week”. He was right. We did learn about each other when we were working together.

[00:21:20] So let’s get back to my professional work. I spent a decade at Marriott. I have many good memories about being a part of that company. I had good opportunities, I learned a lot. And during those 10 years, I essentially held 2 positions. Two. Looking back, I am sure that I would have found more opportunities if I had been willing to branch out and do different things. But I liked being good at what I did, and I liked being in my safe space. It was risky and unsafe to try different things, so I didn’t do it.

[00:21:55] And finally, when it comes to working with teams, in episode five, I talked a little bit about how you can work more effectively with remote team members. What do you do when your team members are not with you on your job? The first thing I want to say about this is that working with remote team members is essentially the same as working with local team members. But here’s the key difference. The key difference is that when you work with somebody who’s in the same building you’re in, you’re likely to bump into them in the hallway or on the way to lunch or taking a coffee break by the coffee machine or the snack machine. Or you’re gonna run into them on the way to the same meeting. Or right after a meeting, you’ll probably chat with them a little bit. That’s the difference.

[00:22:51] That with a remote team member, you don’t have that informal communication opportunity. Typically, if you had something that was going on that was a little bit of an annoyance, or it was a challenge that you were facing, typically what you could do is just what I would call poke your head into their office. Stop by. Just have an informal communication. But with these folks who are remote, it is much more difficult to do that. Because it just seems like a barrier that you have to overcome to make that connection. And I will tell you that it’s more than it seems like it’s a barrier; it’s an actual barrier to communication. So, working with remote teams is the same as working with local teams, but you have to be intentional about making a connection with them.

[00:23:48] So now we’ve talked about how, level one, that individual perspective; level two, the team member perspective. Let’s move on to level three and talk about what it means to be a team leader. Because I know some of you are actually in that role now. In episode six, I introduced the concept of having a new mindset. How do you need to think differently when you start to become the leader of a team?

[00:24:18] Your personal contribution as that individual contributor has been that story of your success, and now your story has got to develop a little further. Everything you’ve done still applies, but you have to apply them a little bit differently. Rather than seeing yourself as a brick layer, you need to see yourself differently. And Marshall Goldsmith says, “What got you here won’t get you there.” In this story, you’re thinking about what made you successful. If you’re gonna get to the next level, you’re gonna have to change your thinking. You’re no longer that individual contributor, just the bricklayer.

[00:24:58] The first step in being successful is thinking differently. You’ve got to change your mindset. So you don’t measure yourself anymore by the number of bricks that you lay, or the quality of the work, the strength or height or straightness of the wall, or how timely you’re able to put the bricks down. No. Now you have to see yourself differently. Now you have to think about being the general contractor who’s building the cathedral. Of course you know how to lay bricks. Of course you do. And you’re still in the business of getting walls built but they are the means to the end. They’re not the end themselves. The grand cathedral is the end. And it’s made up of the walls and the other pieces that are created and assembled by various craftsmen all over the organization.

[00:25:50] So as we reflect on season one, we’ve talked about level one, individual thinking. We talked about level two, working as a team member. We talked about level three, working as a team leader. And as we move forward with season two, we’re gonna focus a lot more on the idea of being a team leader. Some topics that I’ve already got prepared for season two include more about that leader’s mindset; how do you need to think differently if you’re gonna be the leader. What does it take to influence leaders more effectively and developing influence on the basis of permission, not position?

[00:26:31] We’re also gonna talk about how to set goals for your team members and how to hold them accountable to deliver those things that you’ve set out for them. What does it take for you to do real, meaningful career development planning, professional development planning and career development planning for your team? And another topic that I want to spend some time on in season two is managing up. How do you get buy-in from leaders when you don’t personally have the power to make the decision that you need to make?

[00:26:56] Now, as I’ve told you, as we’ve been doing this together, I’m gonna continue to share what I’m learning from you and in my work with clients. And if there are topics that you want me to cover, please reach out to me; coach@brighthillgroup.com. I’d love to hear from you.

Episode Hack.

Tom: [00:27:36] So here we are at the end of season one of the podcast Becoming a Geek Leader. I hope that you’re learning with me and we’re growing together. For today’s Episode Hack, I want to ask you where are you on your four levels of thinking? Are you at level one as an individual? Are you thinking about how you need to perform better as an individual contributor? Maybe you’re at level two, maybe you’re thinking about, “What does it mean to be a great team member? How do I get to respond to team members? How do I initiate work on the team and get other people to want to help?”

[00:28:10] Maybe you’re at level three, or the team leader level, and you’re starting to think about how you could begin to influence the people who do report to you and your peers and the people that report to your peers. Or maybe you’ve approached that team builder level, level four, where you’re thinking about, “What does it take to grow people into leadership roles?” Whatever your level, I want you to think about what could you do, what’s the smallest possible step you could take to move forward? Maybe it’s just going back and listening to one of the episodes I referenced here in the podcast and maybe it’s thinking about a person you need to influence or a step you need to take to do something like that.

[00:28:53] Whatever your level, I want you to think about what you could do to make a difference. And don’t forget you could check out the episode page for a download that lists out the four levels of thinking and gives you some specifics about those four levels of thinking. And that’s today’s Episode Hack.

[00:29:11] One final note in this last episode of season one. I just want to say thanks. Thanks for taking me with you. I know you’re investing in you and I know listening to this podcast is one of the steps you’re taking to help you grow. And I just want to say thanks for including me on your journey. And don’t forget, if there’s any question you have or some topic you’d like me to tackle, feel free to reach out to me. It’s coach@brighthillgroup.com. I’d love to hear from you. Thanks.

Closeout

[00:29:39] Thanks for listening to this episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. You could play a part in helping the podcast to grow. If you enjoyed it, please do me a favor. The way to get the podcast to grow is for you to go to iTunes and give it a rating. If enough of you give me a good rating in iTunes, this podcast will show up in their New and Noteworthy section. Being a New and Noteworthy is a great way to attract more listeners, and having more listeners helps me have the support to keep the podcast going.

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[00:30:21] This is Tom Cooper. Thanks for listening. Be sure to join me next time for another episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. Join me in my mission of discovering better ways to lead others at work and at home.

Listen now!

In this episode:

In this bonus episode, Tom talks to Charles Rutstein, a geek turned CEO, in a 2013 interview. They discuss questions like:

• How can you be considered for higher level leadership roles?
• How do you bridge the divide between geeks and corporate leaders?
• What does a CEO think about?
• What should you do to build a really effective network?

Transcript:

Tom: Welcome to a special bonus episode of Becoming a Geek Leader.

Sponsored by Geek to Great

This episode of Becoming a Geek Leader is sponsored by the Geek to Great 101 course. We all want to grow our skills and improve the work we do, but who has time for that? In this online, blended learning program, you and your team will gain practical skills in topics like time management, dealing with difficult people, improving communication, and so much more.

00:00:33

Train your whole team for less than $500. Each lesson is 30 minutes or less, so it fits right into your current team-meeting schedule. Find more information and get immediate access to your first free lesson at brighthillgroup.com/helping geeks. That’s brighthillgroup.com/helping geeks, so that you can get access to the Geek to Great 101 course.

00:01:02

Welcome to the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. My name is Tom Cooper. As a geek, I’m on a mission to figure out better ways to lead others at work, and at home. Through the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast, I’m sharing what I’m learning, so I can help make you more effective at leading people, too. Ready?

00:01:21

Introduction

Joel: Hi, my name is Joel Cooper and today I will be your guest host for the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. Normally you’d be listening to my dad, Tom Cooper, introduce the episode. Unfortunately he has been sick for the past week or so. So I will be filling in for him. However he is overseeing me, so you aren’t just listening to the ramblings of a teenager.

00:01:49

This week we’re bringing you some special content from the archives. This is a re-release of a 2013 interview dad did with Charles Rutstein. During this episode, you’ll learn the answers to questions like, “How can I be considered for higher level leadership roles? How do I bridge the divide between geeks and corporate leaders? What does the CEO think about?” It turns out it’s a lot more math than you might think, and also, “What should I do to build a really effective network, if you’ve ever wanted to have more success as a technical expert in influencing others?”

00:02:32

Dad wanted me to point that this interview is really a master class on how to think and how to act. A deep dive on what it takes to transition from being a technical hotshot to being a head honcho. A leader of a team or an organization from someone who has been there, and done that. They cover a lot of information in a short time, so this is one of those episodes that you’ll want to listen to multiple times in order to get the most from it.

00:03:04

You’ll hear more about Mr. Rutstein’s background in the interview. He has been a hardcore techie and has moved to the top of the ladder in his career. He is currently the CEO of a Boston based company called RISI. RISI is a global information provider about the forest products industry covering pulp, paper, wood, timber and more. So let’s jump right into it.

00:03:33

Thought Leader Segment.

00:03:41

Tom: Today I have the privilege of welcoming Charlie Rutstein to our series. He and I go back a long way. In fact, I’ve been able to observe his journey from hotshot to head honcho, and Charles I think we’ve known each other for what us it, 20 years now?

00:04:06

Charles: It’s probably about that, Tom, yeah.

00:04:08

Tom: Hard to believe that. One of my first memories of working with Charles was when he joined us at Price-Waterhouse. We were both doing geeky consulting there, and one of the directors came up and said, “Tom, you’re not going to believe this guy. He is unbelievable. This guy actually has a network installed at his house.”

00:04:26

Charles: At which point you said, “So do I.”

00:04:30

Tom: Yeah, I did. It’s tragic, but true. Tragic, but true, but it really does speak to the kind of at the time that was an unusual thing. Now we all have wireless devices and wireless networks in our homes. But what was that? Thinnet that you had installed in there?

00:04:48

Charles: Absolutely yeah, and that with a Network 331 server.

00:04:53

Tom: Right on, and then Charles went on to write the book on Windows NT security and then went on to Wharton for an MBA, and then after that moved along with Forrester and spent was it 12 years at Forrester?

00:05:08

Charles: Close to 14, yeah.

00:05:11

Tom: Oh, my goodness. See, time gets away from me, unbelievable. And then you just recently wrapped up your tenure as Chief Operating Officer if I’m not mistaken. Is that right?

00:05:19

Charles: I did.

00:05:20

Tom: So you have been on a journey from nerd to somebody who’s been really leading an organization, and what I really want to dig into with you is about that journey. So I’m curious to know as you were building your Novell network at home, were you thinking about how you might be stepping into a leadership role.

00:05:44

Charles: Not even a little bit. Not in those days, no. I think like a lot of people, I was enamored of the technology from an early age, and found I had a knack for picking it up. So mostly I was interested at that point, in enjoying the journey. Discovering the latest and greatest technologies, and figuring out how they could be useful, and I would say leadership was not foremost in my mind at that point.

00:06:13

Tom: So there came a time when you started to think differently about those things, and I remember I was really impressed with you that you had said at that time, “Look. I’m doing a tour of duty here for Price-Waterhouse, but I’m moving on. I’m going to get an MBA.” At the time, I mean we were a bunch of young bucks who were trying to figure out our space in the tech world, and I thought that was unusual. So what was the thing that really caused you to say, “I think I want to go explore something that’s not specifically technology?”

00:06:43

Charles: Yeah, sure. So at that time, Tom, it certainly appeared to me as though there was a great divide, and in fact, maybe there still is a great divide between the technologist who really understand how this stuff works and the business leaders who need to make the decisions to invest in those technologies, and of course, care primarily about the impact of those technologies on their business. And so being able to have one foot on either side of that divide, having the opportunities to bridge that gap was what I saw as my ticket, my way to differentiate myself, and I think candidly that is probably still true. I think for many technologists today there is still a gulf that they can help to bridge.

00:07:30

Tom: That’s a really interesting point because I think that…I’ll get your take on this. My thinking is that there are an awful lot of technologists who love to build technology because it’s technical.

00:07:43

Charles: Sure. Sure, I think that’s the initial draw for many techies, right?

00:07:49

Tom: But not necessarily getting that there’s a reason that businesses buy technology.

00:07:54

Charles: Yeah, yeah. In many ways, it’s the why should I care question, which fundamentally I can tell you what’s going through the mind’s of most senior executives when they’re talking to techies. What they’re wondering in the back of their head is, “What is this person talking about,” first, and foremost, but more importantly, “Why do I care?” I think many senior executives have begun to recognize the power of technology. They understand that everything is digital in their world’s, whether they like it or not. If you go around the company today and start unplugging wires, you’re going to hear screaming very, very quickly.

00:08:34

Tom: It won’t take long.

00:08:35

Charles: Yeah, they know and they appreciate that. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have a clear view as to the new ways that technology can help them to shave costs, to serve customers, and new ways to run their business in a more efficient and more effective manner. And so it’s a rare technologist indeed, who’s able to bridge that gap and that, I think, is what’s essential to make this transition, that you’re talking about.

00:09:02

Tom: So I’ll flip it around then and say from the technical perspective. I mean who cares about all that marketing and sales rot, right? Why should I care as a technologist about that stuff?

00:09:14

Charles: Sure, I think the answer is ultimately is if you pop the head of CTO and look what’s in there, what you find is that person cares only about two things. They care about growth and revenue and they care about expansion of margin. That is to say can I make the business bigger? Can I make it more profitable for whatever scale it’s at? So those are the things that we in turn need to think about sales and marketing, and therefore, in turn must we technologists think about the same thing is they to be on the same page.

00:09:53

Tom: Yeah, it’s interesting. I was just having a conversation this week, with a woman who said, “I’ve been doing this stuff for 25 years, but I’m not considered for the C-level and I want to know why. I think you put your finger on that. That he was not looking at those aspects in the way that the C-level folks look at that. Now since you’ve been on both sides of that divide, isn’t the stuff that the C-level people do, isn’t that mostly schmoozing and BS?

00:10:27

Charles: It turns out that there is a lot of schmoozing and BS, but it’s a means to an end. There is certainly some of that. But the reason that these guys and women get paid what they get paid is to make some very big important decisions that are fundamentally about resource allocation. So when you sit in a senior leadership chair and you look at a technology investment, you’re weighing that investment against all of the other uses of that capital.

00:10:59

If you have a technologist that comes to you and says, “Look, I have this really cool thing and mobile is really hot and we’ve got to have a mobile app. So hey, can I have the money to do it?” That’s one thing. If that person is coming and saying, “Hey, look, I can drive revenue higher by building a mobile app, I think we can drive revenue of X in the first year and Y in the second year.” Now I have that in a language that I can understand, and I can weigh it against an alternative investment. So for example, an expansion of my sales force is another way to grow revenue, which is going to provide a better return. Now I can go and do the math on it. That make sense?

00:11:37

Tom: Yeah, and it’s interesting you’d put it in those terms. Because really what you’re saying is it’s math. It’s arithmetic.

00:11:46

Charles: It is.

00:11:46

Tom: It’s not BS. It’s arithmetic.

00:11:48

Charles: It is, but you will get the curriculum and [inaudible 00:11:55] by leaving the business schools these days, and what you find there is that it is largely quantitative, which is to say that there is a quantitative, and numerical answer to most business questions. You just have to apply the right tools to get there. The problem I think in so many technologists is that they’re not able to help senior leaders to translate what they’re saying into terms that they can put into those ways of thinking about problems.

00:12:24

Tom: So obviously you went down that path, and you’ve found a way to do that. So what was it that you did that helped you bridge that gap? Because it wasn’t an overnight thing. You didn’t just wake up one morning, and all of a sudden you could speak that language. So what was it that helped you in that process?

00:12:40

Charles: Well, what helped me was undoubtedly the business education that I got because there are a set of tools that are in the leaders toolbox if you will, and if you understand them well, again, this is about communication. It’s about an ability to be able to talk to that senior leader. So for example, understanding how to do a discounted cash flow to get to a net present value. If you can present your technology wishes and dreams in that way now you can have a conversation with the senior leader in a really effective way because you’re talking the same language.

00:13:23

I think an investment in learning some of those analytical tools is first, and foremost. Second is maybe asking yourself this question of, “What is this other person across the table care about? The stuff I’m going to talk to my technical peers about is almost certainly not what this person cares about.” You remember a moment ago when I talked about looking inside the CEO’s head and seeing what’s there? If you can tie it back to one of those two drivers, whatever the conversation is that you’re having, you are far more likely to be successful.

00:14:00

Tom: Wow. That’s really insightful. I think about a conversation I had with a technologist. I was working for a software company and he said, “Tom, the reason it’s going to take me a long time to build this module is we’ve got to implement Microsoft distributed transaction coordinator.” At that time I was VP of products and definitely far from being a technology guy and I said to him, “Okay here’s my problem with that. We’re not transactional and we’re not distributed.”

00:14:32

Charles: Right. And I think even equally important, Tom, you can ask the question that says, “So what?” That’s a pretty effective tool. As you think about, for the preplanning, maybe a conversation with a senior leader, think about what you’re going to say and say, “Well, who cares? Why does that matter? What does it tie back to in the business that this person actually cares about?” Because they don’t care about distributed processing. They don’t care about how the technology works or how long it takes to implement. They care about, “Hey, does it accelerate revenue or does it grow margin?”

00:15:09

Tom: That’s a really good point, and I think you raised something even more fundamental there. Because you said, “Prepare to have a conversation with a leader.”

00:15:22

Charles: Yeah, right. I recommend it.

00:15:25

Tom: Well, and not only that, but specifically preparing to have that conversation in the context of what that person cares about.

00:15:33

Charles: Yeah. Well, let me give you a window into my experience. It certainly is not universal. But in the last seven years or so I spent as COO at Forrester I would have typically somewhere between 8 and 12 meetings a day. So I’m chock-a-block from 7 a.m. until late in the afternoon, one after another, and all I’m trying to do in those meetings is figure out, “Is there an important decision to be made here, and if so, do we have the information required to make the right decision?”

00:16:09

So I’ve had a lot of people, especially technologists want to do a big preamble. There’s a big setup and there’s a big backstory and so forth. Personally I just want to get to the heart of the matter. So it was always for me much more helpful when a technologist would come in and just say, “Look, here’s the bottom line. We have a decision. We can do A. We can do B. Here are the implications. This one’s going to cost more money, but it’s going to be more profitable in the long run. This one we can do that,” etc. I think if you get to that, boy, I was incredibly receptive to that conversation.

00:16:46

Tom: So that’s interesting because really what you’re talking about is twofold, if I’m reading correctly. On the one hand you’re talking about putting it in a language that you can understand, and the other is putting it in order of importance for the things you care about.

00:17:02

Charles: Yes, yes, and getting to the point quickly.

00:17:08

Tom: But we care about the technology. Don’t you care about the technology?

00:17:11

Charles: The truth of the matter is, when I’m on company time, I actually don’t. Now at home I may be tinkering around in the basement on the PC or what have you. But at work, as a senior executive, no, I just don’t care about the technology. I care, and of course this is the important bit, I care about what that technology can do for the business. I care about if it can accelerate revenue or expand margin. I care about whether it can differentiate me in the long run, and give me a capability that my competitors don’t have and can’t match. I’m interested in what comes next. If I want to be ahead of the curve and meeting customer needs, and in those fundamental drivers, I just don’t care what the technology is.

00:17:59

In fact, underneath the covers of these technologies that I would know or care about, I don’t care what’s in them. In other words, I might look at a mobile app and say, “Yeah, hey. You know what? I really need that for my customers.” What language that’s written in, high-level language, lower level language, how it’s interpreted, what kind of server’s behind it, I just don’t care.

00:18:25

Tom: Wow. That’s a pretty challenging thing because as a leader then, how are you going to communicate that to your team members without horribly offending them that you feel like they don’t matter?

00:18:36

Charles: Well, it’s not the question of whether they matter or not, in the sense that, I care that it gets done. I know there’s a lot of complexity that goes with it. I know we have to have great people who are doing it and I know that we have to pay them a fair competitive market wage. But the details of how we do it frankly are somebody else’s problem. And so that’s I think, the difference between an individual contributor and a leader. An individual contributor their responsibility is to manage those details. The leader’s responsibility is to pick the right technologies to implement, to do the right research allocation, and then get the right people on the job.

00:19:24

Tom: That’s really interesting. As a person who has been involved with business leadership, I totally understand the language that you’re using. But when I think back on those days of our youth when we were working together on projects and traveling and that sort of thing, how different a perspective that is.

00:19:43

Charles: It is.

00:19:44

Tom: Because there were so many times we were trying to figure out how to get the server to talk to the client or we’re trying to get the wide area network thing to blah, blah, blah, buzzword, buzzword and it didn’t enter into our day-to-day conversation. More than that, I never had anybody in my career who said, “You know Tom, what you need to do is you need to learn to speak the language of business.”

00:20:05

Charles: Yeah, I wish that there was more of that going around. I think we’d be more effective as a community of technologists if that were the case.

00:20:15

Tom: Yeah, it’s interesting. Did you have somebody in your career who said, “Charles, here’s what you need to do?”

00:20:21

Charles: No, I don’t think it was quite like that. It was more evolutionary for me. As I got more and more senior you start to have a little trial and error here. You have conversations with senior execs and some of them maybe go well, and some of them maybe go not as well. If you’re attuned to that, then you learn to tune your message and tune your language and that sort of thing.

00:20:48

Tom: Right. Either that guy’s just totally clueless or he’s a jerk to, “Oh, he resonated with this. Let me try and put it this way.”

00:20:57

Charles: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there’s a little experimentation there, right? You never know exactly what’s going to happen when you get into a meeting, but certainly we observe people and adapt to them. Maybe that’s another thing that’s important for technologists here, Tom. Is to recognize that it is they who are going to need to do the adapting. If they wait around for the senior executive to adapt to the way they think about the world, they will be waiting in vain.

00:21:26

Tom: That’s an interesting point. I’m just processing that. You’re right. You’ve got the opportunity to choose to adapt to the other side.

00:21:42

Charles: That’s right.

00:21:42

Tom: Now the one thing I admired about you and have always admired about you is that your sensitivity to people, and your humility even when you were the smartest guy in the room, which was often. You didn’t act like you were the smartest guy in the room. And I watched a number of guys, and we could name names, but we won’t, who didn’t have that perspective, right?

00:22:07

Charles: Right.

00:22:08

Tom: Who would make it clear to you just how stupid you were, if you didn’t understand the buzzwords.

00:22:12

Charles: Right.

00:22:13

Tom: So I’m curious about your thinking when it comes to people skills Because even when we met, you had already a set of skills that you had refined over time and you’ve continued to do that. As I’ve watched your communications over the years, and the way that you’ve handled yourself, it’s been obvious that that’s something that’s important to you, and it’s not always important to the technical folks. So how did you get plugged into that concept of being attuned to the needs of other people?

00:22:41

Charles: So number one I’m not as think as you smart I am, so it was easy to hide that. Let me tell you in a different way. One of the single most important attributes in my view for a senior leader is the ability to understand people and the ability to communicate to them. Now that sounds like super trivial and super obvious. It turns out that it is much more complex than most people think. Another reason why a senior executive in that position is typically they are great communicators. That means that they’re able to communicate in lots of different venues and lots of different contexts and adapt their message and their style to what people need to hear which is to say what they need in order to hear the message that that person wants to convey.

00:23:49

So in order to accept that, in order to say to yourself, “Yeah, I need to do that,” but you’ve got to respect the person who’s on the receiving end here. You have to respect them and say, “Look, they have a different worldview than me. They have a different perspective than me. Maybe they’re smarter than me, but I need to find a way to make them understand what it is I’m asking them to do or asking them for.” And so I think at root this is about understanding what’s in the other person’s head, respecting where they’re coming from. But again, it’s that bridging the gap. Being able to talk to them in their language.

00:24:22

Now in this particular relationship, the adaptation really needs to come from the technologist because that’s the way the power structure works, especially in larger companies. So you just have to do that adaptation. But I think, regardless of whether you make the shift or not, whatever conversation you’re going to have, understanding the nature of that other person and what they want, and what makes them go, what makes them tick, whether they’re tiresome. I think it’s central to business.

00:24:55

Tom: Okay. So I just have to stop you here. Because this is a pretty profound shift in thinking. It sounds to me like what you’re saying is, “If I’m a technologist, and I’m working hard, and learning technology and implementing that technology well, and solving hard problems that the business desperately needs solved, that’s not enough for me to get promoted and move up into a leadership role.”

00:25:24

Charles: That’s very well said. Yep, it’s maybe required, but it’s certainly not sufficient. Because look, the skills that you’re going to need at any level in the hierarchy are going to change. I remember Tom, I’m a pretty direct guy and that carried through from when I was an individual contributor to when I was first leading the initial teams that I led. And then I stepped up to running much larger teams, hundreds and hundreds of people around the world, and I carried through that same style. And I had a boss who came to me early on and he said, “Look, you’re going to have to change the style.”

00:26:11

It turns out he was right. Because what’s happening was that people were trying to figure out the message behind the message because nobody else in that position had ever been quite so direct. So they were all, I’d have an offhand comment, and they would go off and be panicked about we’re going to step product line or we’re going step on the process or what have you. So I had to learn to attune my communication style to a different context, and a different audience, and so forth. I was able to keep that direct nature of communication, but the style had to change.

00:26:47

What I found was that style had to continuously change as I moved up, as I moved geographically around the world, different audiences, different types of people, whether it’s cultural differences or functional differences. Talk to a finance team differently than you’d talk to a technology team and so forth. So I think that ability to be a bit of a chameleon to adapt a style is required, whether you’re a technologist coming up or anybody else. The earlier you learn that the better.

00:27:21

Tom: Wow. That’s an interesting observation. It has to do with, I sat down with a client the other day and they said, “Well, we could hire a management consulting firm to come in and do this stuff. But you speak our language and we feel very comfortable with you, so want to have you in here.” I think you’re tapping into that. Even the idea of using the terminology of finance when you’re talking with a finance person.

00:27:42

Charles: Oh, you bet.

00:27:43

Tom: It’s a huge shift in the marketplace. I remember when I first heard the term net present value it made my eyes roll back in my head. I have no idea what that is and I don’t know why I care. The same thing that you were saying.

00:27:59

Tom: Yeah, right. That’s it. Look, it’s no value judgement here, at least from my perspective, Tom. Some people will maybe heed this message and say, “I really do want to make this transition, and move into a senior leadership position.” I’m telling you, you better do these things. On the other hand, there are going to be many people who say, “Having looked over this cliff, I’m not really interested in jumping,” and that’s fine, too. I think there are a great many people who have wonderful careers as technologists, all the way through, so it’s a choice. I’m being rather emphatic about having to do these things, if you decide to go this direction you have to do these things, but it doesn’t mean that you have to go in this direction.

00:28:48

Tom: Yeah, it’s a good point and I think what’s interesting though, is that I would suggest to you that very few technical people recognize it’s a choice they’re making.

00:29:00

Charles: You’re probably right. Do you think that people, that technologists that you spend time with these days, Tom, do they think about the long term, as they should?

00:29:11

Tom: I don’t know. I think that an awful lot of the folks that I work with generally have felt like, “You don’t really understand the technology the way you may once have understood it.” I was in leadership for a while in that world, and they would, “Well, you don’t really get it because this is harder than it was when you were…” whatever. It may be true. They may be smarter than me, but they’re so enamored with the digital bits of it that they struggle with the other pieces of understanding how that fits into the overall playbook. So I think just the idea that these are areas that you need to look at. Now the one thing that you talked about that was relatively frankly a bit abstract is this concept of business expansion and increasing profitability of business. What are your thoughts about the technologists beginning to learn about how the company operates, and then also the industry that they’re in?

00:30:10

Charles: Well, I think that those tools are a means to an end as well, and those ends are those two things that you referred to, the revenue and profit. What is it that governs the ability to grow the business? Well, obviously it’s the environment in which the business operates. It’s the types of product the business sells. The ability of the customers to pay for or interest in the customers and paying for additional products or services. So all of those are certainly contributors. I think the reason that I focus on the two, the profit and revenue growth is simply to say that, look, every thing else is a means to an end. It’s to do one of those to things. So there’s a lot of contributors, but make sure that you don’t lose the forest for the trees here.

00:31:01

Tom: Well, it does kind of boil it down, right? How are the projects, that I’m doing, directly related to revenue growth and what if they’re not?

00:31:09

Charles: You bet. So I’ll give you an example here, Tom. As I changed the way that I managed our technology folks, we used to do at Forrester a big prioritization of projects every quarter and always lots of stuff in the hopper. What I asked for was we change the nature of the prioritization conversation that we would do roughly every 90 days, and I wanted a couple of columns added to the spreadsheet that they were using. What they were tracking in the spreadsheet was typical and IT stuff. It was about the project, and the cost, and the timeline, and the phases, and all of that stuff.

00:31:55

I asked them to add to that spreadsheet, “What is this going to do to revenue, and what’s it going to do to margin?” And many, many times I’d look across the spreadsheet and what was in those columns would either be blank or it would be not very meaningful and I’d say, “Look, we’re not doing this project.” There’d be a great outcry and they’d say, “Oh, we have to do this,” and blah, blah, blah. I’d say, “Guys, if you can’t find something meaningful to put in here, I’m not doing it.” So I take a kinetic stream in saying, “Look, you better be clear as you’re thinking about what it is that you’re developing or what it is that you’re enhancing, so what’s it doing for the business?

00:32:43

Tom: So I’m intrigued by that. So let’s say that I’m a senior database administrator and I’ve been doing and I’m the guy who’s now in charge of the DBA’s and I’m thinking, “Okay. I want to move into a more leadership role,” and I know everything there is know about database tuning and spindles and all those kinds of things, and I’m starting to see there are some of these things out there. How in the world would I begin to get started even thinking about how I would tie the database, which is a core infrastructure piece, to profit and revenue?

00:33:16

Charles: Okay. So first things first, you’ve got to think a little bit beyond that core technical expertise. Obviously to get higher your purview is going to expand, so what’s a click up from one individual technology? Well, maybe it’s a collection of technologies. That is to say maybe the next step is to an architecture role. So hypothetically if you’re going to map that, you’ll say, “Well, where I want to be after being in charge of the database operation, it’s in architecture.” Well, what’s the purpose of architecture? A couple things. Number one, it’s to make sure that the environment operates efficiently, so that is it saves money, drives money down to the bottom line or it allows us to create new products or services, more quickly to get in front of our customers to drive revenue. So you can pretty quickly once you get up to that level, tie it back in a very direct way. I think to your point it is harder at an individual technology level, but necessarily, “Hey, you’re going to have to go that higher level, as your next step in any case.” Does that make senses?

00:34:26

Tom: It does. It does and I think that’s a great next step natural progression piece. So for you Wharton was a model, right, to go in and get equipped to do some of these things. How about the people aren’t destined for Wharton? Do you have some suggestions about areas that they would even begin to consider? Are there bloggers or are there books or courses you could take online? Any of those kinds of things that you might even think, even in the general direction that might be helpful for folks?

00:34:57

Charles: Well, all of the business schools, especially at this point, have executive education, and so that’s a place where you might think about taking a course or two. Most of them do nights and weekends and this sort of thing. I think it’s important personally to have that experience because again, you’re building your toolkit. It’s not anything specific that you learn there. It’s a toolkit. It’s a set of capabilities that you’re building in yourself. But that set of capabilities, as I pointed out earlier is also a language, and so you can read books, and so forth, whatever online or what have you, but immersing yourself in it, is a very, very good investment of time and energy.

00:35:51

Tom: Well, the challenge is, I like the points that you bring up about the executive education. Because an awful lot of folks don’t have the guts to do what you did which was to quit a job where you were doing very well, and you were getting paid nicely for your contributions to say, “I’m going to now go to school and fund that,” and that was a bold decision that you had made about your career progression. So I think the concept of the executive education is that.

00:36:20

Charles: Well, it turns out to be less bold maybe than it might first appear, Tom. The reason why I’m hesitating to recommend that all techies go get a business degree is that, I think at a certain level, it’s not worth it. So I’ll tell you what I mean. If you go and you take your GMAT’s and you have your college grades and so forth, if you can get into a top 20 B-school, I’d say it is absolutely worth doing. You should do it. You should do without hesitation because actually it’s not that big of a risk. If you look at all of the numbers on that, what you tap into at those schools is a very good out placement for your next gig, and also typically a very big jump in salary when you do so.

00:37:13

So the odds are in your favor if you can do that. The story’s a lot less clear if you’re not able to get into one of those schools. You go to the regional B-school, I think if you can swing it, that you can afford it, you’ll be well served by it, but it’s not exactly a financial slam dunk in the same way. If that’s the case, my recommendation is maybe you should think about just taking some classes.

00:37:40

Tom: Well, that’s interesting insight. The one thing that I’m curious about as well, and it hasn’t come up in our conversation is the idea of the people that you meet in your journey. So the folks that you met in business school, are those folks that you have stayed in touch with?

00:38:02

Charles: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you bet and many of them have gone on to very impressive things, and started companies that you’ve heard of, and all of this sort of thing. But the power of the network is a big reason to go to one of those schools. The ability to pick up the phone and say, “Hey, look. We went to the same school,” and be able to at least get your foot in the door to have a conversation. Yeah, it’s a significant factor.

00:38:31

Tom: But I would suspect that your network is not limited to those folks that you went to school with. If I know Charles, I know that you’ve been building your network for your whole professional career.

00:38:49

Charles: Oh, absolutely and I think that’s hardly unique. I think we all do that, especially in this age of Facebook and LinkedIn, and so forth. It’s essentially become easier than ever to do so. Personally I’m all about collecting smart people. People who I look at and I go, “Wow. I can learn a lot from that person,” so those are the kind of people, like you Tom, that I keep in the network over the long haul here and say, “Look, I want to understand what this person is up to and maybe I can learn some things.”

00:39:25

Tom: Well, that’s an interesting point, and you’re really looking at how are the people, selecting the people intentionally that you want to have in your network as opposed to just letting it happen by accident.

00:39:36

Charles: Oh, sure. Yeah, for me, I’ll give you an example with LinkedIn which is great tool, of course. I think a lot of people just say, “Hey, look. Anybody that sends me an invitation, come on in. More connections is better.” But that sort of dilutes the value of it, both for you and for everybody else. To me, I try and think of the future and say, “Look, if somebody came to me and they said, ‘Oh, this person’s in your network. Would you recommend them to me?'” If I don’t either know them well enough to make a recommendation or frankly wouldn’t recommend them, I’m not putting them in the network. So I have hundreds and hundreds of invites sitting in the inbox that I’m not sure what to do with because I’m not going to put them in network. And so I think being a little bit selective there is a win because the quality of the network then becomes a powerful tool. Quality in my view is more important than quantity.

00:40:38

Tom: Well, that’s a very good point, and I think for most of us, we meet the people we meet in the projects that we do, and it doesn’t occur to us that we might weed some of those people out of the network.

00:40:50

Charles: Yeah, I think you have to do that.

00:40:53

Tom: So what are your thoughts on this concept that you become the average of the five people you spend the most time with?

00:41:00

Charles: That’s interesting. I’ve not heard that before.

00:41:03

Tom: Is that right?

00:41:03

Charles: The average of the five people I spend the most time with. Well, the people I spend the most time with, I suppose are in my family. So I’ll take that as win.

00:41:15

Tom: Choose your family well, right?

00:41:16

Charles: Yeah, right, exactly.

00:41:19

Tom: Well, I think that the idea of being selective and intentional about who you want to be around, whether those people are going to suck the life out of you or whether they’re going to encourage you and build you up, whether they’re going to challenge you. I liked what you said earlier about finding people that you can learn something from.

00:41:37

Charles: Yeah, you bet. I’m sort of ruthless about that. I’m always looking to find the angle where I can have somebody teach me something. So obviously I’m there for people as well, to maybe teach them something, if there is something that I know that they don’t know. But I’m always looking to learn from others.

00:42:00

Tom: So I’ll do one more question here and it really speaks to the question of mentoring relationships or having people who have been influential for you. Have you had any formal or informal mentoring relationships and how did they get started?

00:42:16

Charles: Yeah, so I’ve had maybe both. The informal ones have occurred organically as they do. Where you get to know somebody and through time you pick their brain, and bring problems to them and so forth. I think that’s an important thing to have a sounding board like that, professional sounding board beyond the family sounding board. Somebody maybe understands the context of your business life a little bit better. Then also on a formal basis, I worked for some years with an executive coach which was a terrific experience. It’s a top guy who coached basically our entire executive team and helped to create a more effective, more functioning, higher functioning team. From somebody who was able to give us some very direct advice and feedback about what to do in particular situations. So my advice would be if you have the opportunity to do some of that do it.

00:43:31

Tom: That’s a great recommendation says the guy who’s in the coaching business.

00:43:37

Charles: So Tom is a great coach. If you’re thinking about looking for a place to start, I think you might’ve just found it.

00:43:47

Tom: Well, I think it’s helpful to get some dispassionate perspective. Our families tend to be very much on our side, as they should be, and having somebody who’s just not on the boat with you, but somebody who can see where you’re boat is going to say, “Hey, there’s a waterfall over there. You may not want to go over there.”

00:44:04

Charles: Yeah, well said. Well said, I like that.

00:44:07

Tom: So it’s really I think just an idea that folks do have the answers, but it’s a question of perspective and if you look at it from a different perspective, frequently I find with clients they’ll say, “Oh, I didn’t frame it that way.” “Well, maybe if you didn’t interpret it that they were attacking you…because they aren’t thinking that much about you.”

00:44:30

Charles: Right, well said. Maybe the corollary to that is if you’re going to go that direction, make sure you listen to the coach. There’s nothing worse than having somebody give you that outside perspective and just say, “You know what? They don’t know what they’re talking about.”

00:44:47

Tom: Yeah, really.

00:44:48

Charles: They probably did know what they were talking about.

00:44:51

Tom: Oh, my. Well, I appreciate very much your investment of time with us today and I know that there are folks who are going to really get a huge amount of value from this conversation. Do you have any final thoughts about somebody whose a technical person who’s saying, “Yeah, I really am ready to make that jump?” Any insights from the COO that you might want to bring to say, “Here’s what I think you could do that would be a great first step?”

00:45:13

Charles: Well, I’m just going to reiterate maybe, Tom, what I mentioned for the course of the conversation here. Which is, understanding how the person across from you thinks about the world, what they care about, what they need in the world, is just incredibly important. So at the most senior level, as I mentioned, revenue and profit, and there are derivatives of that as you go down the chain. I think if people could take one thing away from this, if they could do more active thinking about what that other person needs and wants, they’re going to be better off.

00:45:48

Tom: Well, that is hugely valuable advice. I can tell you, it applies in marriage. It applies in business. It’s worthwhile in so many different areas. So I think this has been an incredible investment of time for our listeners, I know to able to get that perspective from an expert like you, Charles. So I appreciate your contributions here and I’m excited to watch to see what’s happening next for you. You’re involved with some climbing adventures as well, are you not?

00:46:19

Charles: I am, yeah. When I’m not working, I’m hopefully up in the mountains somewhere.

00:46:26

Tom: So what’s your next challenge to conquer in that respect?

00:46:30

Charles: So let’s see. In January I’m doing, I want to ascend up Mt. Washington, up in New Hampshire, home of the world’s worst weather. One of their official taglines and then March, [inaudible 00:46:45] and June up Mt. Ranier. So I’ve got them stacked up here.

00:46:49

Tom: That sounds fantastic. I’m sure you could talk about some leadership lessons from mountain climbing, as well. We’ll have to do another call on that one.

00:46:55

Charles: All right. Fair enough. Well, thanks for the time, Tom.

00:46:59

Tom: Yeah, thank you. Take care.

Episode Hack.

00:47:20

Joel: Here are some key ideas from the interview. Number one, brilliantly solving key technical problems very well, is not enough to get me promoted. Number two, leaders think differently than technical experts. Someone has to adapt and it’s not going to be the leadership people. And to number three, understand how the person across from you thinks. What do they care about? What do they need? Today’s episode hack is for you to make a plan, for you to make that next level. What is the next level? Who do you need to influence? What do they care about? What are one or two areas where increasing your business knowledge will help? Who is a person that already speaks that language? Can you ask them to help you? And that is today’s episode hack.

00:48:31

Closeout

Tom: Thanks for listening to this episode of becoming a geek leader. You can play a part in helping the podcast to grow. If you enjoyed it, please do me a favor. The way to get the podcast to grow is for you to go to iTunes and give it a rating. If enough of you give me a good rating in iTunes, this podcast will show up in their New and Noteworthy section. Being in New and Noteworthy is a great way to attract more listeners, and having more listeners, helps me have the support to keep the podcast going. There are three simple steps to giving me a rating. One, go to the iTunes store in the podcast section. Two, search for Becoming a Geek Leader, and three give the podcast a great rating, and while you’re there, why not write a quick review as well? Thanks. This is Tom Cooper. Thanks for listening. Be sure to join me next time for another episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. Join me in my mission of discovering better ways to lead others at work and at home.

Listen now!

In this episode:

• How to prepare for the conflict so it doesn’t escalate, and
• Exactly what to say to that other team member to help you resolve the conflict completely.

Resource Downloads:

Conflict Resolution Worksheet – Got a conflict to work out? This worksheet helps you figure out how to use the CORE and XYZ methods for your specific situation.

Case Study – the 30 Percent Solution – This story demonstrates the 30 Percent Solution being put into practice, letting you see how it might unfold when YOU use it.

Transcript:

Announcer: [00:00:00] Becoming a Geek Leader, season one, episode nine.

Sponsored by Geek to Great

We all want to grow our skills and improve the work we do, but who has time for that? In this online blended learning program, you and your team will gain practical skills in topics like time management, dealing with difficult people, improving communication, and so much more.

[00:00:33] Train your whole team for less than $500. Each lesson is 30 minutes or less, so it fits right into your current team meeting schedule. Find more information and get immediate access to your first free lesson at brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks. That’s brighthillgroup.com/helpinggeeks, so that you can get access to the Geek to Great 101 course.

[00:01:04] Welcome to the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast. My name is Tom Cooper. As a geek, I’m on a mission to figure out better ways to lead others at work and at home. Through the Becoming a Geek Leader podcast, I’m sharing what I’m learning so I can help make you more effective at leading people, too. Ready?

Introduction

[00:01:25] Hey, thanks for joining me today. I am so excited to talk to you. What I want to talk about today is, how can you resolve conflict in a productive way? I’ve got some practical tips for you on that and I’m really excited about sharing them with you. Also I’ve got a worksheet that you can download from the website. I think it’s going to be a big help to you and I’m looking forward to going over that material. Also I want to introduce you to a better way of delegating work. I call it the 30% Solution.

[00:02:00] Also I just want to call out a quick shout-out to another podcast that you might want to check out. For those of you who aren’t theology nerds or followers of church history, you might not realize that we are rapidly coming up on the 500th anniversary of the date that Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg. As it happens, that turned out to cause a major shift in the Christian church and in church history.

[00:02:32] For those of you who have any interest in thinking about how things were 500 years ago or about the factors that may have affected Martin Luther’s decisions to go the way he did…and there are good and bad in all the things that he did. Man, that guy had some pretty powerful insults. The guy had a kind of crazy tongue, too…but what you might want to check out is a terrific new podcast called The Life and Times of Martin Luther. I’ve gotten acquainted with the creator of that podcast, Steve Fogle, and his content is great and it’s an entertaining and informative podcast on the life and times of Martin Luther. You can check out more information about his podcast on www.martinlutherpodcast.com.

[00:03:24] I know I’m frequently interested in checking out different podcasts and different types of content, and I just wanted to let you know this is one I enjoy and suggest you might want to check it out as well. He recently got picked up in New and Noteworthy and there have been an awful lot of folks who’ve been interested in it. So I hope you enjoy it.

[00:03:43] So I’ve got a lot to cover with you today and I’m looking forward to getting started. So let’s jump right in.

Mentoring segment.

Tom: [00:04:07] For the Mentoring segment today, I want to talk about something that is one of my most requested areas. How to resolve conflict. This is something that I get feedback from people on all the time. If there’s something they want help with, it’s, “How do I resolve conflict with that guy who is just a jerk?” I like to say, “When you’ve got people, you’ve got problems.” The thing is that most of us haven’t had any guidance about how to resolve conflict since kindergarten, right? We know we’re supposed to be nice and supposed to share and try and work it out, but we really haven’t had a lot of guidance about how to do a great job resolving conflict with others.

[00:04:53] But you know what’s interesting? Studies show that people who are more skilled at conflict resolution tend to be happier at work. One of the things that my wife and I learned when we were in our premarital counseling is that conflict, when handled properly, conflict can be a gateway to building a better relationship. So in the mentoring segment today, I want to talk about the specifics of, how do you go about having a difficult conversation with somebody?

[00:05:21] Now this breaks down into two phases. The first phase is preparation. You’ve got to get ready and then I call it engagement. How do you engage with the other person? Now the fact is that if you prepare before you engage, you’re going to have far better outcomes. In the middle of a dispute, you just are not going to be able to remember a complex process. So what I’m laying out for you today is really simple.

[00:05:50] So let’s talk about preparation. The more preparation you have for the conflict, the less likely you are to have it go south on you. The challenge we all face is that conflict is always, always an emotional thing. When you’re dealing with people, conflict is inevitable and it is always going to be emotional at some point. But you cannot let your emotions hijack your brain.

[00:06:21] There’s a part of your brain called the amygdala and it is the part that helps you determine how you’re going to respond to things that upset you. When you get into a highly charged emotional situation, your brain lights up and your amygdala helps process those inputs. If your fight or flight response kicks in, if your amygdala says, “Whoa, we’ve got to either fight or get out of here,” your rational thought is gone. You need to get a handle on your emotions before you get into that difficult conversation.

[00:06:54] Now it turns out that it’s easier than you might think. Remember I said there are two phases. Phase one is preparation. For the preparation phase, I want to introduce you to an acronym, CORE. I recently attended a workshop with Dr. Les Parrott. He’s a relationship researcher who’s spent decades doing academic studies on conflict resolution. In his workshop, he taught me about the CORE of conflict. Before you have that conversation with the other guy, spend a few minutes thinking about CORE. CORE is an acronym that stands for cooperation, ownership, respect, and empathy.

[00:07:38] So C, cooperation. Connectors connect on common ground. How can you cooperate with the person you’re having a conflict with? What is something you can both agree on? What’s a goal you can both buy into? You want to start out with that. You want to find that common goal so you can lead with your intent. You want to have that positive outcome defined for both of you. Your goal is not to win and it’s not to be right. It’s to try and find something where you can both walk away feeling like it’s been valuable, it’s been a win for you. So that’s cooperation.

[00:08:16] Now let’s talk about ownership. You have to own your piece of the problem. There’s never a conflict that’s 100% the fault of the other guy. Even if your responsibility is only 1% and the other guy is 99% wrong, you have to own 100% of your 1%. Dr. Parrott says, “Humble pie is a pastry that’s never tasty.” What you want to do is think about your goals cooperation, and you play a part in that. Is there anything that you did that helped contribute to or helped escalate the conflict? You want to have some ownership, you want to recognize your part of the problem.

[00:09:07] Now we go from cooperation and ownership, now we’re going to talk about the R, respect. You’ve got to keep the conversation respectful. It’s not personal. It’s not about the character of the other person. It’s not even about their intent. You might think you know their intent, but you probably don’t. So you’ve got to find a way to frame the conversation around their behavior, not about who the person is. And we’ll talk in more detail about that in just a minute. But your goal is to be able to focus on the behavior and focus on the outcome, not focus on their intent or upon their character because you need to be able to show respect. You’re going to focus your attention on specific actions, not your interpretation of those actions.

[00:10:06] So we talked about cooperation, ownership, respect. E, empathy. You want to step into the other person’s shoes. Do you think that guy set out to be a jerk? I doubt it. It almost never happens that somebody wakes up and says, “I want to be evil today,” or, “I’m going to make it my goal to really annoy you.” Most of the time, people are so selfish that they don’t think about you very much. I heard Dr. Phil say, “You wouldn’t be so concerned about what other people think about you if you knew how rarely they did.” Get in the other guy’s shoes. Try to understand their perspective. So phase one is CORE, cooperation, ownership, respect, and empathy.

[00:10:58] Now let’s turn the corner and talk about phase two, engagement. Now this engagement part is where you need to keep it simple because as I mentioned before, if you start to get into that highly charged emotional situation, it’s going to be very easy for you to let your emotions run away with you and not be able to work your way through it. So we’re going to try to keep it as simple as we possibly can. We’re not going to go with any kind of complex game plan.

[00:11:30] So in order to help you be able to easily remember what you were going to do and what you were going to say, I’m going to give you a framework that I’m certain you’re going to remember. In fact, I was just chatting with my niece and she heard me share this idea. It must have been seven or eight years ago. She’s a young woman and we were talking about it, she’s preparing to get married. We talked about conflict resolution and she said, “Oh, yeah, I remember. You shared this idea.”

[00:11:58] Here it is. It’s the XYZ Formula. The XYZ Formula. I told you I was going to keep it simple, right? So XYZ. In situation X, when you did Y, it had Z impact. Let me repeat that. In situation X, when you did Y, it had Z impact. It really is as simple as XYZ. So situation X, when you did Y, it had Z impact.

[00:12:30] So let’s walk through an example. You’re in a meeting. The boss asks for your suggestions and one of your peers is sitting there, he’s looking at his phone. While you’re talking he looks up at you and then he starts making faces, disapproving faces. Eventually he folds his arms and he rolls his eyes and he sighs. Then he looks away. Can you imagine any more disrespectful situation than this? Finally he picks up his phone and he just fiddles with his phone for the rest of the meeting.

[00:13:03] Now worse than being disrespected in public is your boss seems to be kind of following cues from this team member and your boss’s reaction to your great idea, it’s lukewarm at best. Now the thing that’s super-frustrating is that this is a good idea. You know it’s going to work. It represents some of your best thinking on the problem. And in fact, just the other day you mentioned it to this disrespectful team member and he responded positively. Why in the world would this guy do something like that? You feel like he yanked the rug out from under you and you are so angry that he was disrespectful and even contemptuous towards you. Why was he being such a jerk?

[00:13:49] Now this is one of those moments where your amygdala can hijack you right into fight or flight. But rather than decide to respond in the moment, you choose to take the two phase approach that I just discussed. So you get some distance physically and time-wise from the experience and you start thinking about the CORE. So cooperation. What could you do, what could your goal be, how could you cooperate, how could you both agree on a direction that you need to go? Well, what if your goal was you want to have a good working relationship with your peer and you want to work through this conflict? That can be your cooperation. It’s as simple as that. It doesn’t have to be complex.

[00:14:37] Now let’s talk about ownership. Now this one is a little unclear. You really don’t know what was happening with that team member other than what you observed. What part did you play in this conflict? One possibility is that your interpretation of what you saw affected what you perceived and how you responded. Maybe you were seeing something that wasn’t there. Maybe there was more to it than that. And again this may be your part of the problem, is just your reaction to what happened.

[00:15:14] Now we go from cooperation and ownership to respect. Now your reaction was he was being a jerk and I’ve got to tell you, if I was in that situation…and I have been…it has definitely been tempting to think, “Man, that guy’s a jerk.” But you don’t want to name-call. So how can you deal with it? Well, what was it that he did exactly that was upsetting?

[00:15:40] Well, it really was the body language, wasn’t it? It was the eye-roll, the folded arms. How can you in your communication, rather than conclude you were being rude or you were being disrespectful or you were being a jerk, how can you focus respectfully on the behavior of the other person rather than the intrinsic nature, rather than his character or who he is, his essence as a person? Focusing on the behavior rather than your conclusions about the behavior.

[00:16:08] So cooperation, ownership, respect. Now let’s talk empathy. What was going on with that person? Is it possible that you don’t actually know? I would suggest that there’s a strong likelihood that you don’t actually know. Maybe he was physically in the room but he wasn’t actually listening to you at all. All right, so we’ve walked our way through identifying CORE, the cooperation, ownership, respect, and empathy. You’ve had some time to think about it and you’ve got the CORE nailed down. Now let’s talk about engagement.

[00:16:46] First pick a time that’s going to be good for both of you. Don’t do it in public. Don’t do it on a short deadline, “Hey, we’ve got two minutes before the meeting. Let me try and work this out with you.” Make sure there’s time for you to talk. Now it doesn’t have to be an hour. Set up 15 minutes on a person’s calendar or grab a cup of coffee or go to lunch. Do it in a way that can be private to just the two of you in a spot where you’re comfortable and can have good interaction. That’s going to set you up for more success. If either one of you is feeling time-crunched or in an awkward place or time, it just isn’t going to work. It doesn’t have to be a big deal. This can be over very quickly and very efficiently.

[00:17:27] So think XYZ. In situation X, when you did Y, it had Z impact. So what was the situation? It was during the team meeting. Not, “You always,” or, “You have a tendency to,” or, “People say you,” no. In this specific situation, it was during the team meeting when the boss asked for my ideas about the project. So that’s situation X. You did Y. You rolled your eyes, you folded your arms, you sighed, you looked away. It had Z impact. I felt like our boss rejected my idea because of your reaction, at least in part. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the way it felt.

[00:18:13] Now let’s put all that stuff together. When you go see your coworker…let’s call him Joe…you can say, “Joe, I want to have a great working relationship with you and something happened recently that upset me. Can we talk about it? The other day when we were in the team meeting and the boss asked for my input, while I was talking, I noticed that you rolled your eyes, you folded your arms, and you sighed. And man, it just seemed to me like the boss was watching your reaction and he shot my idea down. Now I’m really confused and frustrated about it because I thought you liked my idea when we talked about it before. I didn’t like the way that worked out and it felt like you were kind of shooting my ideas down, too. Can you help me understand what happened?”

[00:18:57] Now you’re not attacking him, you’re not criticizing him, you’re saying, “You did this thing and it had this impact. What was going on?” And notice that you’re asking, “Can you help me understand what happened?” Now one possibility is that he will say, “Yeah, that was a stupid idea and the boss should have hated it.” I’ve actually worked with some engineers who would say that, but I’ll tell you that that’s actually pretty unlikely.

[00:19:24] The more likely outcome is that you’re going to have a different conversation altogether. In fact, he might say something like, “I don’t know what you mean. I didn’t mean that towards you. I’m sorry if it came across that way.” Now that might actually be the best you ever get. That might be the best you ever get and you have to be willing to accept it. Even if they say something like, “I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings,” or, “I’m sorry if I upset you.” Obviously you’re upset. But remember a lot of people haven’t had any guidance about conflict resolution since kindergarten and it’s very difficult for all of us to admit when we’re wrong.

[00:20:02] But what if his reaction is different? What if he looks at you and says, “I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. I did what? Oh. Oh, my dad texted me that morning during the meeting. I knew he needed to go to the doctor, that he was waiting on some test results, and it was bad news. Gosh, after I got that text from my dad, I wasn’t paying attention to anybody during the meeting. I was…when I was looking at my phone, I was looking up…Googling options for my dad’s treatment. I didn’t have any idea that it was having an impact on you. I’m sorry about that.”

[00:20:43] Here’s my point. You really don’t know what was going on inside the other person’s head. Even if you think you do, even if you’ve worked with him a long time, even if you think, “Oh, yeah. I know exactly how that guy is,” you really, really don’t know. All you saw was what happened on the outside and your reaction to what happened on the outside.

[00:21:03] So to wrap up, I want you to think CORE, cooperation, ownership of my part of the problem, respectful, and empathy. And then the XYZ Formula. In situation X, you did Y, and it had Z impact. That’s the core about how to have a difficult conversation.

[00:21:22] Now I’ve got a worksheet that’s on the website for this podcast episode and I would encourage you to download that worksheet to help you think through some of these ideas as you go through resolving a conflict. I’m telling you, if you take this approach you will be astonished at how powerful it is. You’ll be amazed at just what an impact it makes on your ability to resolve conflict and really improve your working relationship with your coworkers. That’s today’s mentoring segment.

Coach’s Mailbox.

Tom: [00:22:26] In today’s Coach’s Mailbox segment, I’m looking over an email from Rashid. Rashid asks, “Tom, I have way too much on my list. I’m leading a team now and I want to delegate work to others, but I’ve got a problem. When I assign work to my team members, it takes too long and they deliver work that’s not good enough. So I end up working late nights to redo the work that they were doing. It’s a lot easier to do it myself, but I know that doesn’t scale. I’ve got to find a way to be able to delegate work to others, but it’s just not working. Help.”

[00:23:03] Man, Rashid, I can relate to that. It is really frustrating to feel like you’re the only one who gets it and the only one who can get it right. What’s worse is, if you’re like most of us, you’ve made your career so far on your ability personally to deliver great work. So the easiest thing is just to do it yourself. But unfortunately as you’ve noticed, that doesn’t really work. It works because you deliver the specific things that you need to get done, but it doesn’t work because you aren’t able to do every single thing that needs to be done.

[00:23:42] Well, I want to share an idea with you that I think is really going to help. I call it Delegation, the 30% Solution. This is a paper that I presented at PMI’s Global Congress North America this year, and it was well-received by the attendees and I think you’ll find that it’s a helpful, easy way to reduce the amount of time you spend working on rework and at the same time, it will help you train your team members to be able to focus on the right things and do the work that needs to be done.

[00:24:17] In today’s model, you invest some time handing a project off to one of your team members and they bring it back to you when they think it’s done. But as you look at it, they’ve made some progress, but you were hoping not to have to do any of the work because you were trying to delegate it, right?

[00:24:33] I think about a client who said…he’s the technical account manager for a technology company working at a client’s site. The senior management wanted a report on, “Hey, we’ve spent a bunch of money, a couple hundred thousand bucks, on this implementation. What did we get for our money?” The technical account manager was looking for a presentation that would help the senior executive and the client recognize, “Oh yeah, I’m getting business value for this investment that we made. I’m getting a return on my investment.”

[00:25:10] What he found was the highly technical team members who were working on the project reported out all the nerdy stuff that they had done. “We did this many networks and this many servers and we converted this much equipment, and we blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But none of it was translated to business-speak and here my client is saying, “This is crazy. I need to give a report. Now I’ve got a bunch of data. I’ve got to translate that data into knowledge and put it in a way that my client understands. Man, this is a waste of my time. Why did I even ask them to try? I should have just done it myself from the beginning.”

[00:25:45] Well, I’ve seen that happen. It’s certainly happened to me and I’ve seen it happen with my clients as well. So what I want to do is help you figure out how you don’t end up doing 70 to 80% of the work on the project. Because that’s what happens. You get this work delivered to you, it’s not really good enough, and you have to go back and scramble to get it done because of course they deliver it to you on the deadline. Or close to the deadline. And it wasn’t on your list to have to scramble through and try and get it all done at the last minute, but now it’s dumped in your lap. And that is stressful, right?

[00:26:19] So in the 30% Solution, we’re going to take a slightly different approach. For the first phase of the project, you’re going to spend time working one-on-one with them. Once they’ve gotten off to a good start, in phase two, they run with the ball. You’re available to answer questions, but they’re handling it. They own it. Then when they’re almost done, you get to phase three and they’re going to bring the project back to you and you will finish the work together.

[00:26:48] So these three phases are the 30% Solution. Phase one, the first 20% of the project you spend working directly with them. Now what’s the advantage of this? Well, you’re going to help them understand the goal. You’re going to help them develop the approach to solving the problem or achieving the goal. And then you’re going to identify for them the resources they need to help them move forward. At the end of that first 20%, at the end of that phase one, you’re going to start phase two.

[00:27:22] Now for phase two, they’ve got the goal. They’ve got the approach, they know about the resources, and you feel like they’re pointed in the right direction. So they run with the ball in phase two and they carry most of the weight of the project. They do 70% of the work on their own. Now again you’re available to answer questions, but you’re not making the decisions, you’re not driving the bus. You’re there to support them as they drive the bus. Then as you get close to being 90% of the way through the project, when you get to that last 10%, that’s phase three.

[00:27:58] Phase three is you finish the work together. Now that doesn’t mean that when they get to 90% of the way done, they throw it over the fence and then you have to clean up their mess. Wrong. That is not it at all. In fact, it’s the working together at the very beginning of the project and the very end of the project that makes such a huge difference. So you’re going to finish together. That means you’re going to sit down with them, you’re going to go over their reports and their deliverables, and you’re going to help them wordsmith or clean up or finalize the work and get it to that level.

[00:28:33] What happens in this process is you’re getting the quality to where it needs to be and you’re giving them direct and specific guidance about how to improve their delivery so that next time, you don’t have to work so hard on that. If you want them to be able to do it, you’re going to have to train them. The 30% Solution provides a good way for you to give them that training without sending them to a class. It also helps you to really understand where the gaps are in their understanding.

[00:29:05] So is it worth it? Well, you go from doing 70% of the work to doing 30%. Now of course you’d like to do 0% of the work, right? But this approach is going to reduce your workload and help train your team members. And they’re going to be better equipped for the next project to take even more off your plate. The more you use this approach, the smaller that number gets. It starts out at 30% and it moves down from there. So you do the first 20% together, then they do the next 70%, and then you do the last 10% together. That 20% plus 10%, that’s the 30% Solution for Delegation. I hope that helps as you’re handing off more work to your team members, Rashid.

[00:29:50] By the way, do you have a question for me? Feel free to send it to me at coach@brighthillgroup.com. That’s today’s Coaching segment.

Episode Hack.

Tom: [00:30:23] In today’s episode, we covered two important topics. The first was how to manage conflicts with a team member and the second was how to delegate work to other folks on your team. In the conflict section, we talked about the core of conflict and the XYZ Formula. In the delegation section, we talked about training your team, equipping them to take on more work using the 30% Solution.

[00:30:50] For today’s hack, I want you to think about a team member with whom you’ve had a recent conflict. How could you use the XYZ Formula to discuss that issue with them? Think about the situation, exactly what they did, and exactly what the impact was, and then make time to go talk it out with them. Now as I mentioned before, there is a worksheet on the podcast page for this episode that you can download to help you get your thoughts in order before you go meet with them. Download that and then go have that conversation. I’ll be excited to hear how it works out for you. And that’s today’s Episode Hack.

Closeout

[00:31:26] Thanks for listening to this episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. You can play a part in helping the podcast to grow. If you enjoyed it, please do me a favor. The way to get the podcast to grow is for you to go to iTunes and give it a rating. If enough of you give me a good rating in iTunes, this podcast will show up in their New and Noteworthy section. Being in New and Noteworthy is a great way to attract more listeners and having more listeners helps me have the support to keep the podcast going.

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[00:32:12] This is Tom Cooper. Thanks for listening. Be sure to join me next time for another episode of Becoming a Geek Leader. Join me in my mission of discovering better ways to lead others at work and at home.